My last Land Rover.

[cols110]

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G`day all,

I over the last 7 years I have owned 4 different Land Rover, 3 110s including my current 2002 TD5 110 and my Wifes current 2004 V8 Disco. I never would have though I would consider throwing in the towl and going accross to the opposition, but the time has come now that I know when we replace our current vehicles they will not be replaced by another LR product. We own our current vehicles and are not in a hurry to replace them, our Disco has been very good with very little going wrong, admititdly it has only 62 000km`s on the clock and has seen very few miles offroad, up until now everything has been covered by warrenty but now the warrenty has expired. The only real problem we have had with it has been the TC/ABS under warrenty the ABS modulator valve and SLAB ECU were replaced. But by and large our Disco is by far the best vehicle we have owned and hopefully it will stay that way for quite a few years to come. The main reason I would`nt replace my Wifes vehicle with another Disco is depreciation, the Disco`s plumet in value compared to similar vehicles such as Prados which hold their value extremly well.

My previous 110s a 1988 V8 and a 1990 200 TDI 110 were OK apart from a few gearbox changes etc, but given the age of them etc I was`nt to worried about a few things going wrong here and there.

My current 110 a 2002 TD5 which had 40 000km`s on it when I purchased it 2 1/2 years ago now has 99k so by and large it is quite a new vehicle with less than 100ks on the clock. Compared to my earlier 110s it is a dream to drive, had been quite reliable and I was more than happy with it, but as of late my opinion is changing, it was first off due to the unusual situation of the price of diesel here in Dubai, which is still cheaper than what everyone else is paying in the real world, but is now 2.5 time the price of petrol and as of 1 month ago before the oil price started to come down was 3 times the price of petrol, so running our V8 Disco was and is quite a bit cheaper than running my TD5. So faced with the prospect of being able to run a bigger more powerful engined vehicle like a 4.5lt or V8 TLC or 4.8lt Nissan Patrol at less cost than running a TD5 110 I have started thiking about what I would replace my 110 with if anything happend to it. It also does not take a rocket scientist to look at the reliability of the other manufacturers compared to LR either, the TLCs are the pick of the buch when it comes to comfort but they are no where near as bullet proof as the Nissan Patrol which is a bit rougher in the body and cabin, very good off road, has twin fuel tanks, the 4.8lt engine is the most powerful thing on the market and can seat 4 or 5 in comfort which my 110 cannot. With a suspension lift a set of 285/75s or 305 tyres, factory rear diff lock they are very very good in the sand coupled with 160lts of fuel on board. My 110 for what it is, is just as good in the sand, I have to drive it very hard to get the best out of it, the TD5 has has a mild ECU remap, it has front and rear lockers and it spends a lot of its time on the limilter in 3rd low as I find this is the best climbing gear in the dunes, I would like to run a set of 285/75 tyres but am scarred of what will break next if I do so. One of my friends has 220ks on his 98 patrol and has not replaced one broken drive line component which is pretty impressive for the abuse he gives this thing. My 110 on the other hand has 99ks on it and from memory this is what I have replaced so far

-clutch slave and master cylinders

-2 pin front diff, due to carrier and pin wear leading to failure

-twisted rear prop shaft

-2 rear 1/2 shafts

-3 exhaust manifold studs snapped

-EGR valve lower pipe snapped off almost causing engine fire

-baddly leaking transfer box to main box seal, transfer box needs to come out to fix it(next project)

-fuel pump

These are just the major things I can think of, there is probably something else I have missed, there have also been all the more minor things as well which have not been listed, brokem platic bits etc etc.

I really hate to think of what my list will be up to if I still own the thing when it gets to 200ks on it.

I still love driving my 110 and hate the thought of driving a Patrol but my head is starting to over rule my heart and if my 110 is written off in an accident or in the desert saddly I wont be buying another one, they are fantastic fun to drive and very capable but I am really getting sick or spending time underneath it after a trip to the desert and handing over my hard earned cash paying for new parts. But for the time being I know my tool box wont be made redundant for a some time to come, and our local LR stealer spare parts dept can keep smiling every time I come through the front door.

[GBMUD]

Sorry to hear you are unhappy Cols. I hope you continue to enjoy the LRs for some time to come.

While I see your point about the fuel situation I question whether a Japanese vehicle will offer the reliability you desire when similarly aged and used in the same way as your 110. Even if it does, are parts for Japanese cars much cheaper in Dubai than the UK? As you know, in the UK they are often much more expensive than LR parts.

Good luck whatever path you choose.

Chris

[JimAttrill]

The faults you have had with your 110, apart from the front diff and the rear prop which are unusual faults, are extremely common. Two faults we avoid:

snapped exhaust manifold studs - we use Würth Mercedes studs that look exactly like the TD5 ones but don't break.

EGR pipe setting plastic cover on fire - we remove the EGR system and throw it away.

Transfer box to main box seal is somewhat rare failure, EP90 leaks are normally the intermediate shaft o-rings. Just as expensive to fix though

Clutch master cylinders - we fit stainless steel resleeved ones that seem to last

Fuel pumps - yes the less said the better except we can now get 'pirate' ones at half the price. They also don't last sometimes but it doesn't break the bank.

At least you haven't had some really expensive things happen like cracked cylinder heads, worn out bores in no 1 cylinder, fuel coolers with corroded holes in, blown head gaskets, radiators with holes in, etc, etc.

I must say that the general quality of the bolts used to hold the TD5 together seems to be poor compared to previous engines. And a lot of the design is a bit strange. It is the first engine I have seen with no 'indexing' to keep the big end and main bearing shells in place. And as for the oil pump setup, it is as if they designed the engine and forgot about it until the last minute. And what idiot put the head bolts through the cam carrier?

I do not own a TD5 and never will, I have seen too much.

[steve_a]

I thought the TD5 was a BMW engine, and so would have been really well designed. So who did actually design it then?

[FridgeFreezer]

I don't know why people act so surprised at LR's horrific reliability - the only reason to own a LR is that it's got character and is fun to drive, there is no possible financial or rational reason to buy one. But what the hell, we're all here so 10,000 idiots can't be wrong

[reads90]

Sorry to hear that cols, i have owned plenty of land rovers and know what you mean but just one thing

Nissan and toyota have their problems , they are not a reliable as they would all have you belive

They are strong under neth that can't be argued but! the nissan are know for engine problems as are the toyotas even the new V8 diesel is causing problems . And as for the new V8 diesel troopie the supension on the them is terrible and needs changing as soon as you get the car from toyota

Ali

[JimAttrill]

I thought the TD5 was a BMW engine, and so would have been really well designed. So who did actually design it then?

No, the TD5 came out at the same time that BMW took over LR, but it was the last LR designed engine. I have a theory that it was designed by the tea lady.

[SteveG]

Just think of it this way Col, think of all the time you are not spending under the 110 cleaning mud off with a pressure washer. This now leaves plenty of time for maintenance work!

I agree, a Patrol with better comfort, good aircon and a nice V8 roar as you head up the dunes sounds a better proposition for where you live now.

Cheers

Steve

[SteveRK]

I'm not familiar with Jap off roaders but i suspect that whilst they appear to be more reliable when they do go wrong parts price/availability and fitting are not as cheap/readily available and easy to work on as LR vehicles.

One of the 'benefits' if we can call it that is that LR vehicles are well catered for when it comes to parts and maintenance etc.

[landmannnn]

I'm not familiar with Jap off roaders but i suspect that whilst they appear to be more reliable when they do go wrong parts price/availability and fitting are not as cheap/readily available and easy to work on as LR vehicles.

One of the 'benefits' if we can call it that is that LR vehicles are well catered for when it comes to parts and maintenance etc.

Steve,

You would be quite surprised, a set of front brake pads for a land cruiser are under £20 for non genuine parts.

Ok, so won't find non-service items cheaply but they dont break anyway near as often.

Mike

[Fatboy]

A set of rear brake shoes for a Nissan Navara D40 are £175 and not held in stock in Aberdeen.

New clutch at 36,000 miles. a grands worth of 4x4 switches under warranty. Door locks work intermitently.

Our local farrier got rid of his Navara after it ate its fourth clutch in under 50,000 miles (or something like that). Loads have had entire back axles replaced under warranty...

... and then there are the D22's which chuck the con rod off No3 through the block at 70,000 miles...

[white90]

A mate Mike has a Nissan twin cab brand new

bit of spirited driving across a stubble field

A roll over and one total loss write off

with just a bit of roof damage.

back to his Land Rovers that would have been back on the road a few hrs later.

[reads90]

Steve,

You would be quite surprised, a set of front brake pads for a land cruiser are under £20 for non genuine parts.

Ok, so won't find non-service items cheaply but they dont break anyway near as often.

Mike

A big surprise to me was how expensive the Nissan and toyota parts are in Aus , It is a big thing they moan about here . Surprises me as there are alot of them rounding around here.

I had a toyota chap tell me how cheap land rover parts are compaired to toyota parts

[cols110]

Thanks for the words of encouragement, I think I will be keeping my 110 for a while yet, at the end of this year they are introducing a new law out here which will basically put all vehicles over 15 years old off the road, which is a shame as if I did want to change vehicles there are only 2 other vehicles I would consider, a 80 series LC or the GU series Patrol, the 80 series are getting a bit long in the tooth so may not end up being any more reliable than what I have now and they will be banned from the road within the next couple of years, the Patrol with the 4.8lt petrol is very good(aprat from the fact it looks like a bucket of puss), on average they will use at least twice the fuel as my TD5 but at 20-25p/lt it is not a real issue, even over diesel at 60p/lt is very cheap compared to most other western world prices. Earlier this year I spend 2 weeks and 3500kms driving down the Omani coast road and back up through the centre, this is where the Defender really misses out, driving down the coast road it was fantastic with a desert crossing heaps of dirt roads etc, but hiking it back up the centre where we could have sat on 150kph for 1500kms in comfort would have been nice. Our enviroment out here with cheap petrol and high speed road driving make the jap vehicles very tempting, but when you do get offroad the Defender feels right at home.

Out of interest the IFS TLC 100 series that everyone raves about is probably no stronger than a Defender when pushed hard, the engines are fine, gearboxes average and the independant front can give a lot of problems, and a front locker will regularly bust a front diff if pushed hard in reverse and the new 200 series is just to expensive to consider trashing in the desert so I dont know a lot about it.

Jap parts are usually cheaper out here than LR parts, we dont not have access to all the cheaper LR spares that are available in the UK, where as there are a hell of a lot of Jap spares importers due to the popularity of the jap vehicles out here.

Jim thats interesting about the exhaust manifold studs, I will use them next time I snap a stud.

I have had a couple of big hits in the desert where I slammed into a couple of sand dunes, normally it ploughs on through and with steel bumpers and good clearance angles you normally get away with it, but I have bent the standard bumper on both side back into the wings, which in effect pushed the wings back quite a bit causing the flares to touch the front wheels, with a bit of remodeling with the high lift it is ready to go again in 1/2hr, the same hit in any other jap vehicle even with a decent bull bar would cause major front end damage, there is no doubt I would probably have to modify my driving style if I changed vehicles because the Defender can really take some abuse with the solid front axle and full chassis, its just the other components along the way that dont take it so well.

[pongo]

You may wish to know that JE Engineering do a replacement stud set for the exhaust manifold; they are longer, and incorporate some spacers. Before fitting, you ream out all but the two centre holes to 9.2-9.5mm. The reaming and spacers cures the blowing manifold issue.

I have had a fair variety of the TD5 problems, including the cracked head, knackered dual-mass flywheel (now a Rakeway single piece item fitted), clutch master cylinder etc.

I understand your point of view regarding TLC and Patrol v LR, especially with the fuel price (Why LR insist in fitting such puny engines all the time I don't know. The times I have yearned for a big straight 6 when towing....).

But, I could not buy a Jap. I would have to buy a big supply of paper bags to put over my head so no one would see me.

Sod logic, buy with the heart.

[JimAttrill]

I won't ever buy a Jap vehicle. I was put off them long ago by one of my teachers who had been a POW. They still haven't apologised for starting WWII so sod them all. The only japs I have ever met have been so arrogant they are not worth bothering with.

My wife recently bought a Hyundai, that's ok with me as the Koreans hate the Japs even more than the Chinese do.

Rant over, sorry about that

[reads90]

I won't ever buy a Jap vehicle.

i was doing a dvd vid on my 90 for Australia 4 wd monthly the other week and they asked me why i had a land rover, to which i replied ,

I am a pom therefore i drive a pomiie truck, after all do i look japanise

I had to say it again for the camera as the sound chap and camera man ruined the recording by pissing themselves

[FridgeFreezer]

Why LR insist in fitting such puny engines all the time I don't know.

It's something to do with fitting puny gearboxes and axles

[landmannnn]

A big surprise to me was how expensive the Nissan and toyota parts are in Aus , It is a big thing they moan about here . Surprises me as there are alot of them rounding around here.

I had a toyota chap tell me how cheap land rover parts are compaired to toyota parts

Your exhange rate to the rest of the world is far too low - everything not home grown is expensive.

Did the Japanese start WW11? Nissan Navara's are made in Spain, didn't the Spanish try to invade us ?

[J@mes]

Did the Japanese start WW11?

No.

[Happyoldgit]

<mod hat on>

I think this thread is drifting into areas well outside the focus of this forum so I'm dropping a big broad hint and trust that the drift stops now.

<mod hat off>

[reads90]

Your exhange rate to the rest of the world is far too low - everything not home grown is expensive.

Did the Japanese start WW11? Nissan Navara's are made in Spain, didn't the Spanish try to invade us ?

Exchange rate has nothing to do with it when most of the toyotas are made in aus

[reads90]

I understand your point of view regarding TLC and Patrol v LR, especially with the fuel price (Why LR insist in fitting such puny engines all the time I don't know. The times I have yearned for a big straight 6 when towing....).

But, I could not buy a Jap. I would have to buy a big supply of paper bags to put over my head so no one would see me.

Sod logic, buy with the heart.

The thing is you see the size of the landy engines and the size of the japs but when you look into the power then the land rover comes out on top. Alot of the time the land rover diesel is more powerful than the japs . This is somthing i have learn't since being in aus and surronded by them and even more so when i drove around aus and talked to people

Main moans about nissan and toyota eninges is that they are old design engines and for the size don't have alot of tourqe (mind you the same goes for the fords and holderns too), power and the fuel econmy is really bad . The big toyota diesel are getting simular fuel econmy of a v8 disco. Used to tell peole at camp sites what fuel econmy i got out of the 90 and they were always amazed and used to say god those landys seem to have a smal engines but hell they have some power and a relly cheap to run . Also Alot of the japs trucks can't tow anywhere near what the landys can ( only some brand new ones can now but for long they were maxed out at 3 ton)

Jules and me were at a rock crawing come winch changle event in South west Queensland at the end of last year. we got talking to a chap who was in the middle of building a rangie. Jules and me asked him why as there were so many nissan and toyotas, why would you use a landy truck . At which poit he told us that the Engine and gearbox on the landys / rangies were far better than the jap ones and the balance of the car was better too. But the axles were carp hence putting the toyota and nissan axels under the land product makes for a good alround truck

[stobbie]

I don't see why everbody thinks Land rovers are poor quality, I think it must be the way you use them.

I own a D2 TD5, now at 360000 km's, always with a 2,5 tons trailer, the ONLY problems I've had are the dual mass flywheel at 325000km's and the gearbox at 330000km's. O, and the reard door lock is broken. Everything else is still original, wheel bearings, propshafts, turbo, cilinder head...not a single problem.

My 110 Stationwagon 300TDI now has done 395000km's, had a new turbo at 350000 and at this moment it needs injectors and the gearbox is starting to make a little noise.

My 110 hardtop 200TDI with 650000km's has also given me very little problems, still it's original engine, doesn't leak or burn any oil.

I'm not sure if other makes would have given me this many km's of service with this little problems.