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Challenge Wings - Legality Const & Use regs...MOT etc etc


Hybrid_From_Hell
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Hi all,

After I had beautifully bent to b*ggery BOTH front wings I did look long and hard at the North Off Road challenge wings :

http://www.northoffroad.co.uk/products.asp

But I didn't really like them, and they still looked like they would bash into stuff with the lower corner,

so I have replaced both with new outer wings sprayed up and fitted (What a PITFA that is to do :lol:)

Then at the JST Challenge I saw a 90 with 'Nobby' running about shouting (and being shouted at),

.....but ignoring all that...... I did really like the wings on their truck :

post-22-1220218356_thumb.jpg post-22-1220218374_thumb.jpg post-22-1220218386_thumb.jpg post-22-1220218400_thumb.jpg

And it got me thinking again, as it is only a matter of time before I completely screw the new ones,

so I have time to maybe think about fabricating up something like the above, but my questions are :

  • Does anyone do wings like the challenge wings other than North Off Road ?...if so who ?
  • And if as I think not, then what is the legality of wings like the above on a 90 / truck ?
  • Is there anything that may invoke Construction and Use regs, SVA or MOT issues ?
  • esp around the amount of tyre showing re mud guard front cover etc etc etc
  • obvioulsy as a mod have to tell the insurance company - but other than them ??

Discuss

Nige

PS Shame theres no X-Wings like the above :(

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Jee Nige you are opening a whole can of worms here

I have always said that challenge trucks could end up someone in a whole load of trouble.

From personal experiance ( my father being killed by a truck turning up side down go over the central on the motorway and landing on top of him ) i can tell you that the police strip a car to the smallest part and put back together to check them . And if some of these challenge trucks were involed in a serious accident then that person would be in a whole world of trouble. I was told by a police investgation officer that they can find an mechanical problem on a week old car. Ansd i can't belive that some of these mods are legal

So what are the police going to do when you turn up with a challenge truck , and how some of them are hacked about . Not only the police but the insurance companys will not pay up either. Unless you send them a pic of the truck they will not understand what you have done to the car by you writing it down. And after all , all insurance companies will try and get out of anything

I have had these topics before and people ranting that i am talking carp there cars are 100% legal , hey i may be wrong but i don't think i am , but i think people need to realise they are really bending the law on what is legal and what is not and need to realise this and accept that there could be some problem if they got into a serious accident . There is a big differance between what is legal and what will pass an MOT . For example tyres outside the wheel arch is not an MOT failure but it is illegal on the road . After all an MOT is on a one day of a year and the car can fail an mot the next week after it past one , but will still have a legal MOT for another 11 months and 3 weeks .

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Nige, have a look at steve g's wings , he has North wings & has modded them to minimise the front edge. Theres new shots of the front on members vehicles today.

I saw steffans prachts truck a few weeks ago & hes had northoffroad do a custom front which in very practicle & pleasing to look at. Have look at the Tay pics on here for a few shots of his. I know shauns got a reengineered front end that hes pushing over the old style wings with more clearance on the front corners.

Legalalities ,I dont know Ive instructed the insurers, mots not an issue so long as the tyres are reasonably covered(dont know the exact criteria) Ive been informed. Cant see why it would be an issue for the police so long as its not featuring any sharp objects like rope retainers. Might be worth having a chat with Northoffroad as Im sure they would be knowledgable on the legalities.

I have a set of north wings & would have to agree not the best looking & there is probably scope to maximise their potential with regards clearance, but.... you can give them a pretty good hammering & they bounce off most things

Adrian

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Ali,

Exactly my point and why I am asking :)

As my chassis is unaltered etc and not traybacked (jnstant SVA) then adding anything else to what is already an illegal truck (trayback without a proper SVA) doesn't help me,

as mine is still 100% legal, I am wondering what this may do in terms of that legality.

Bull Bars are now illegal if fitted post sometimeoranother, so what Chaellnge wings classed as ?

If I can ensure that challenge bars are legal and if the insurers both understand what they are and accept them then

providing I am not going into the wrong side of C&UR or into SVA land I may consider,

.............if as I have a sneaky suspision I would be illegal .......then I won't go that route.

Thats one of the big reasons the Hybrid got cut up, as it was SVA land caught up (retrospectivily) and I was just too uncomfortable

This could be an interesting thread

nige

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Nige, first off, North Off Road will make wings to whatever spec you want - if you want clipped wings they'll do it for you. For the price that makes it hard to beat if you're chassis/bulkhead arrangement is stock.

Now the legal bit. As far as C&U regs go these wings will not be illegal per say - look at vehicles like Tim's spaceframe 'Filthy Boy' which sailed through an SVA - the differance to bull bars is the tubed wings form part of the vehicle structure and do not protrude. This sort of thing can, therefore be totally legal if done right. The question of SVA is a good one and probably more difficult to answer. However, I would say that, looking at the rules, you would be 100% legal if you don't cut anything off the chassis as non structural bodies (ie don't form part of the chassis) aren't counted in the points system - this is assuming you jump through all the C&U hoops on light location and tyre covering. But if you decided to cut the dumb irons down then I think you'd be into the trayback 'grey' (but in reality illegal IMHO) area.

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However, I would say that, looking at the rules, you would be 100% legal if you don't cut anything off the chassis as non structural bodies (ie don't form part of the chassis) aren't counted in the points system - this is assuming you jump through all the C&U hoops on light location and tyre covering. But if you decided to cut the dumb irons down then I think you'd be into the trayback 'grey' (but in reality illegal IMHO) area.

Right then we are getting somewhere...

I have no intentions of shortening the chassis, maybe welding an extra support bracket to it for the wing bottoms to fit to etc, but I KNOW chop the chasssis and I'm into sva time, anyone know what the regs are on C&U around light locations, and also re tyre covering etc etc ?

Nige

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<...>

you would be 100% legal if you don't cut anything off the chassis as non structural bodies (ie don't form part of the chassis) aren't counted in the points system

<...>

[OT:=RRC content]

Hmm - I had no plans to alter the chassis on my Range Rover, but I was thinking of making it into a pickup at some stage, but I guess this is out as (like HFH) I want to stay 100% legal and the RRC body (I would imagine) is considered to be 'structural'. :(

[/OT]

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Well illegal or not the mod of cutting the front corner away makes a huge difference when driving. Stops you getting hung up on those front corners and you will find yourself driving stuff you normally get hung up on and pulling the winch out.

From an MOT point of view as long as the lights are positioned right and there are no sharp edges there are no problems.

Cons' and use, If they are like the std replacement (IE, Front corner not cut off) there's no problem. If you did trim the front corner you would have to be sure the lights are in there right locations but with a bit of reading up that would be perfectly possible. I do think there would be an issue with the exposed tyre. That would be something you could make a removable section for reasonably easily, Fit it for road use then remove it off road. It would be too much faffing for me when my truck only gets used on road to go for an MOT but I can see why it would be a concern for someone who uses there truck on the road regularly.

My truck is here http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=23815 with the pic's of the north off road wings and the more recent trimmed ones. Now named "Edna" By Cider man due to its more than passing resemblance of a certain TV stars glasses.

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Jee Nige you are opening a whole can of worms here

I have always said that challenge trucks could end up someone in a whole load of trouble.

From personal experiance ( my father being killed by a truck turning up side down go over the central on the motorway and landing on top of him ) i can tell you that the police strip a car to the smallest part and put back together to check them . And if some of these challenge trucks were involed in a serious accident then that person would be in a whole world of trouble. I was told by a police investgation officer that they can find an mechanical problem on a week old car. Ansd i can't belive that some of these mods are legal

So what are the police going to do when you turn up with a challenge truck , and how some of them are hacked about . Not only the police but the insurance companys will not pay up either. Unless you send them a pic of the truck they will not understand what you have done to the car by you writing it down. And after all , all insurance companies will try and get out of anything

I have had these topics before and people ranting that i am talking carp there cars are 100% legal , hey i may be wrong but i don't think i am , but i think people need to realise they are really bending the law on what is legal and what is not and need to realise this and accept that there could be some problem if they got into a serious accident . There is a big differance between what is legal and what will pass an MOT . For example tyres outside the wheel arch is not an MOT failure but it is illegal on the road . After all an MOT is on a one day of a year and the car can fail an mot the next week after it past one , but will still have a legal MOT for another 11 months and 3 weeks .

Been there done that.

I was involved in an accident where I ended up turning our 110 on it's roof on the motorway at 90Km/h.

The resulting inspection report of the vehicles roadworthiness was not pleasant reading, eventhough I had

just spent a small fortune having it serviced and various items replaced.

There wasn't much of a recognizable 110 left, but the people that do this for a living have access to

all type approval information, EU reg's, etc.

Luckily we were'nt charged with anything as it was some other plonkers fault. However he just drove merrily

on and was never identified.

The police were'nt very helpfull. Luckily I found a good lawyer who also helped us fight the insurance company

which only took 4,5 years.

So now if I ever do anything to my vehicle I make sure the insurance company is told, and modifications

are approved by the local Ministry of Transport testing station and entered into the equivalent of a V5.

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Nige don't forget the other constrictions that form the possible requirement for an SVA - especially engine output. I suspect that your motor puts out more than the 25% over the most powerful Type Approved engine fitted to a Defender. However if the DVLA are happy and have returned your log book with the uprated engine listed on the V% then you are home and dry

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Not 100% certain but there might be issues with the viewable angles on the recessed lights in the first set of pics. You'd need to read up on C&U regs to be sure.

Many of the cars on the road have recessed lights that are only viewable from the front!

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Seems like a can of worms to me... Ive got to the stage with my truck that Im more akin to trailering it everywhere rather than drive it on the road. Not that Im concerned the the integrity or roadworthyness of the truck could be brought in to question. After finishing an event there tends to be a little to much damage on ocassions to rectify before travelling home. Weve all done it im sure, reversed into that tree & smashed a rear lense. Its enough cause for the police to pull you, so why put yourself in that position knowing your vehicles going to atract unnecessary attention.

I dont think theres going to be a definitive answer to this 1 as theres to many variables to be taken into account. For any one of us to have an opinion on the issue, doesnt mean were going to be correct.

Adrian

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Right then we are getting somewhere...

I have no intentions of shortening the chassis, maybe welding an extra support bracket to it for the wing bottoms to fit to etc, but I KNOW chop the chasssis and I'm into sva time, anyone know what the regs are on C&U around light locations, and also re tyre covering etc etc ?

Nige

Nige, you'd have to check this up but I would assume its the same as the SVA test. This means angle of visibility and a maximum distance from the outside edge of the vehicle. Neither are particularly onerous. Basically if your lights are in approximately the same position as now (I would assume you'll keep the headlights where they are and may move the indicator upwards to allow you to clip the wing.

Re covering the wheel I think you should be OK as you will be covering the wheel a fair bit forward of the vertical. I can't remember the figures required off the top of my head but think about the size of cycle covers on Caterhams - you will have a lot more coverage than they do!

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Nige, you'd have to check this up but I would assume its the same as the SVA test. This means angle of visibility and a maximum distance from the outside edge of the vehicle. Neither are particularly onerous. Basically if your lights are in approximately the same position as now (I would assume you'll keep the headlights where they are and may move the indicator upwards to allow you to clip the wing.

How about using a series II type front end on an SVA'ed vehicle? Would you fall foul of light spacing, or would the VIC take acount of the age related nature of the parts used? This could overcome the light protection issue on a custom build...

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With reference to the whys and wherefores, and Will's comment on mudguards, i understand that the outside edge of the tyre must be covered when viewed from above, with the wheels straight ahead.

Easiest answer to most of these questions that come up would be to Obtain an SVA/ construction manual, from VOSA, ok it leaves everything open to interpretation, but if you build or mod anything with this as reference then you are starting along the correct lines.

EDIT to reply to plasticbadger...

Again the manual lists the legal dimensions and requirements of light heights, and distances from the outer edge of the truck/ car etc, aslong as these specs are met, and they are measurable, then you have the answer.

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Only had a quick look and the regs "The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989", but it would appear that direction indicators must be viewable to an outwards andgle of 80° and that is not including side repeaters where required. This was my concern with the recessed lights shown above. If mounting proud like the standard position it shouldn't be a problem.

See here for full indicator requirements, for other lighting requirements see schedules towards bottom of this page.

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:)

Update

On the suggestions of a couple of wise forumeers (namless :P) who suggested I check with the authorities I am doing so.

Have spoken to a VOSA Inspector (very helpfull - he didn't think this would trigger SVA as its a body mod not a chassis mod, he did have a lengthy discussion about what is and is not an acceptable chassis work of any kind - basically if it is a repair of the smae dimensions and the overhangs front rear suspension mounts and wheelbase are untouched and the same as original and the VIN number is clear so are you, ANY trayback shortening of any overhang front rear or wheelbase suspension mounts change etc is instant SVA and illegal without - nice to hear my undersatnding on this was at least correct :) ) but he suggested that SVAs tend to come there way either from an individual going through the system or more likely via DVLA recomended SVA as the course of action - and as such I should maybe go to them and he gave me some words / info to state to them.

Another long (and I have to say helpful and not officious) chat with DVLA they got a Technical expert to ring me, a REALLY long chat and some websites, pictures and e-mails later he has gone away to give me a formal reply, so when I hear I will advise. He was keen to know if I had done it or was planning to, again checked chassis modifications overhangs and he knew the words "TrayBack" "Rollcage" and "Bobtail" and they all came from him and he knew the differences :o and was discussing how so many people may well get a shock if ever pulled into a VOSA inspection in a layby :( and not the sort they would want, god help them in an accident and congratulated me on coming forward and asking, esp as they are now taking a much dimmer view of people either trying to do it after being caught or found :o .....

Lets see what he comes up with :)

Nige

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But if like most, you did the trayback thing and trailered your truck to events, where are you breaking the law. Pass MOT, Ins just specify mods then tax. Your truck wouldn't ever go on the road so therefore C&U regs wouldn't apply. But you would have the relevant paperwork to satisfy event criterea. But if it's an everyday truck that you also use for events then that's a whole new ballgame as above.

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Mark

Well james events sometimes have road sections.

Les No idea luckily all of mine is still as L/R made it

Tony

You saw whare I was heading. You'd have to be unlucky to get pulled on the road up at Wellington.

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