Challenge Wings - Legality Const & Use regs...MOT etc etc

[dollythelw]

Does not also mean that someone who owns a welder can weld two bits together which will hold together

When i did it it was spefic gargaes and not just any idiot with a spanner in his hand. Although something is better than a tw*t with a beer in one hand and a welder in the other, building some gods what thing in the back of his garage

any idea why these specific garages were any more qualified than any other?

[sean f]

any idea why these specific garages were any more qualified than any other?

My understand was that they were generally places who did design / fabrication work AND had qualified and certified people to do it. Official qualifications PROVE some one is fit to make a judgement.

Before people get upset there are many people without qualifications perfectly capable of doing this and many with the qualifications who are frankly idiots.

Its mostly a case of the insurance companies having a paper trail to say they had an "appropriate" person check the vehicle.

Proven competence is becoming a big thing in a lot of industry mostly to cover the managers / owners for liability if some one working for them takes a short cut and cause an accident of some type (or maybe I am getting cynical here). The paper work show they SHOULD have know better there fore it is there fault.

[reads90]

any idea why these specific garages were any more qualified than any other?

Not really ,not in that trade , bu why do some do MOTs and some don't t

[dollythelw]

because they pay for the toys!

as we're handbrake turning O/T and vaguely on the subject of MOTs - why does this country allow mot inspections at places that have a vested interest in the vehicles failing??

[reads90]

because they pay for the toys!

as we're handbrake turning O/T and vaguely on the subject of MOTs - why does this country allow mot inspections at places that have a vested interest in the vehicles failing??

Now that is a good point which has always got on my nerves

[sheeppimp]

must admit I've always wondered that too

[nicks90]

as we're handbrake turning O/T and vaguely on the subject of MOTs - why does this country allow mot inspections at places that have a vested interest in the vehicles failing??

some could say that it improves the standard of the MOT inspection and vehicle safety.

A garage that depends on a large portion of its income coming from mot rectification work is going to test vehicles very strictly. That slightly corroded brake pipe, or slightly sloppy bush that could just be a pass/advisorywill be failed and fixed if the test is done by a garage with a vested interest.

if it was some "government run test centre" type of place, they would probably let it pass through. Why not? they dont care....

[Daan]

because they pay for the toys!

as we're handbrake turning O/T and vaguely on the subject of MOTs - why does this country allow mot inspections at places that have a vested interest in the vehicles failing??

There is a point, does the government check up on garages? In holland, you have to leave the car for one hour on the place were the MOT (called APK) happened so there is an official bloky that can come and check the car over to see it was all legit. And they do, I had a car that was checked over once after it passed the APK. Is there anything like this here?

Something else I found interesting with regards to MOT: If a copper pulls you, he asks for MOT. If you havent got one, your illegal, fair enough. But if you do have an MOT, it means nothing, because the MOt is only really valid on the day.

That again doesnt stack up.

Daan

[dollythelw]

Spain and Finland its a totally seperate thing - any vested interest in company doing recification work is illegal and looses you the ticket for testing

my only real point is just how totally clust f***ed the rules and regs are in this country - god bless it and long may it continue

[dollythelw]

some could say that it improves the standard of the MOT inspection and vehicle safety.

A garage that depends on a large portion of its income coming from mot rectification work is going to test vehicles very strictly. That slightly corroded brake pipe, or slightly sloppy bush that could just be a pass/advisorywill be failed and fixed if the test is done by a garage with a vested interest.

if it was some "government run test centre" type of place, they would probably let it pass through. Why not? they dont care....

can I borrow those rose tinted spec please?

you're assuming fair and honest work practices done for the good of society - things that fled the country just after they invented money, tax, greed and kids to feed, please look up bandit, thief, spanner monkey on wikipedia - they all have the same picture in the entry

[will_warne]

Really Will , what challenge scene are you looking at , not the same as me

Read the whole thing Ali and you'll see where I say it comes from It isn't generally the top end of the sport as the competitors tend to be more conscientious about their vehicles and do much less road work.

Steve, after an SVA you can legally modify a car along the lines of the points system for standard cars. If you go further than this then, yes, you fall into a dodgy area again. The big difference, though, is that instead of reading "Defender 90" (or similar) on the V5 it will read "Amateur Built Vehicle". It will be quite obvious if the first is modified (even if done to the letter and well), the second you will not. This is my point. I do agree with you about people who don't maintain their vehicles, though. Much more dangerous! However, when they get stopped they will have the book thrown at them.

Nick, the big issue around SVAing is you need to go into the light truck class as a Land Rover will really struggle to pass in the car class. If you radically alter a 'car' then it has to be retested under the car rules (or that's how I understand it). If you, however, built an amateur built vehicle you can choose to drop into the light truck class as long as you fulfil the criteria (namely the load bed size).

[Steve 90]

There is a point, does the government check up on garages? In holland, you have to leave the car for one hour on the place were the MOT (called APK) happened so there is an official bloky that can come and check the car over to see it was all legit. And they do, I had a car that was checked over once after it passed the APK. Is there anything like this here?

Something else I found interesting with regards to MOT: If a copper pulls you, he asks for MOT. If you havent got one, your illegal, fair enough. But if you do have an MOT, it means nothing, because the MOt is only really valid on the day.

That again doesnt stack up.

Daan

Yes they do have checks.

Within reason we have to be close to the national average (although there are differences due to area).

They do "surprise" spot checks and pre arranged visits to just check the site etc over.

There's the "mystery shopper" as they call it who will be a VOSA representative with a VOSA car calling in just as an off the street customer.

They will also call in and re check any tests that have previously been done in that day and compare the test with your findings.

[FridgeFreezer]

Fundamentally the law is still an ass - all the kit car boys do the SVA and then remove all the bits they don't like (plastic caps on bolt heads, rubber trim round anything sharp, etc. etc.). I've heard rumour that some single-make forums have one set of "SVA kit" that they lend out to members just to get their vehicle through

The issue is really once you've got a Q-plate, you're on much more solid ground - as has been said, your vehicle is officially recorded as an amateur build rather than something it's not. The insurance co would have a much harder job pleading ignorance of a modified vehicle on a Q plate than something pretending to be a factory 90.

Did you have to / or have you got an engineers report the V8 engine in your 109. And do you have one for the portals under your truck,. And do the insurance company really know what portals are. After all most insurance companies i know would not know what they were even if you hit them round the back of the head with them .

It's a fair point, insurance co's will try to wriggle out of as much as possible - however, on the flipside I was totally honest with them and e-mailed a complete and detailed list of everything I've done to the 109, and they accepted it. So, the onus is back to them now - if they didn't understand something they could ask or refuse to insure. How many people out there (especially the younger lads who pay through the nose for insurance) are 100% truthful with their insurance company?

Since I know people have held my 109 up as being dodgy with regards to the SVA before now, I would say it's actually on better ground than some "standard" trucks - everything bar the axles is LR, I haven't cut the chassis or changed the wheelbase, and I could bolt on a set of stock Series axles with 5 minutes notice, at which point I rather suspect VOSA would be less interested in it than people think. The modifications are recorded with the DVLA, the MOT chap actually updated it on his computer at the first MOT.

[Steve 90]

Fundamentally the law is still an ass -

Couldn't agree more.

How many people out there (especially the younger lads who pay through the nose for insurance) are 100% truthful with their insurance company?

Me actually, The insurance Co knows exactly what it is, What's been done to it and what its used for. The rep walked around the vehicle with me as we made a list the first time and they get a call every time I do something to it now. Mainly due to the fact that if it gets pinch'd I want the same back!

Since I know people have held my 109 up as being dodgy with regards to the SVA before now, I would say it's actually on better ground than some "standard" trucks - everything bar the axles is LR, I haven't cut the chassis or changed the wheelbase, and I could bolt on a set of stock Series axles with 5 minutes notice, at which point I rather suspect VOSA would be less interested in it than people think. The modifications are recorded with the DVLA, the MOT chap actually updated it on his computer at the first MOT.

I thought this Thread had gone into the " if you have an accident and they check it over" mode, In which case the axles and an engine producing a zillion times more power than std would be of interest. Im not having a dig Fridge, I personally don't have any issue with any of the work on your or any other well preped truck. But I also cant see how, what is basically a std 90 with a different cross member(a well fitted one) is an issue. But as you said earlier the law is an ass which is why I feel we should not stir things up any more than needed and threads like this on a public forum are pointless and just asking for trouble.

[white90]

Perhaps this sort of in depth discussion should be a in a section of its own?

So forum members can peruse it readily but no so interlopers

[Boothy]

Seems to me we need an average traybacked, hybrid chassised including shortening, portal axled, externally rollcaged, dual winched, tubed winged front and rear, headlamp modified, HYDROSTEERED, altered suspension, Simex tyred, beadlocked, big engined, challenge style truck, that usually never see's any road use, and is always trailered to events truck as a guinea pig for an SVA inspection, one that the owner doesn't give a flying f*** if it makes the SVA guys fall over with exicitement and write a 300 page report on the failings of the vehicle.

If it's a regulary trailered vehicle that the present owner has no real intention of ever using on the road.

I don't think they cannot shoot you for trying can they?

How much is an SVA and what's the crack?

[Landy Andy]

Hi all,

This is my first post on the forum after reading pretty much every thread on the website I thought it was time I joined, so I apologise in advance if there is anything wrong with my post

I have been reading this thread from the start with great interest and it has started to worry me slightly after some recent modifications I've made to my Landy. The truck has the North Offroad wing kit fitted to it with sort of the corners tapered and my D44 bumper cut and welded to suit. The rest of the vehicle is modified similarly to most challenge trucks, 35" tyres, front rear winches etc but is not traybacked, however reading this thread has got me worried about the possible need for an SVA test. The vehicle hasn't been on the road yet although it is still MOT'd. My question (sorry for the long introduction) is with the wing kit fitted, the tiny non structural trimming of the dumb irons in keeping with the D44 bumper as Will mentioned earlier and a rear bed mounted winch tray would the vehicle require an SVA test to remain on the right side of the law??

I have informed my insurance company of all the modifications and so far nothing has been questioned, the truck is used not only for challenge events but as my everyday transport to and from university (all be it on a different set of road tyres), the vehicle is kept in very good mechanical order for reliability at both events and on the road, is regularly serviced and MOT'd. Since I intend to regularly use the vehicle on the road should I further investigate an SVA to remain legal and for peace of mind??

Thanks in advance for any advice/opinions

Cheers

Andy

[white90]

My opinion Andy you are fine the D44 bumper and dumb iron mod you mention is only a jacking point not the Chassis dumb iron.

[steve_d]

How much is an SVA and what's the crack?

SVA is £190.

My Dakar had its test today.

After 6 hours I came away with a failure and a long list of things to fix.

However, there is nothing on the list which is not fixable.

The main item being that the back end is much lighter than a RRC and the rear brakes lock up first so I need to replace the rear brake compensating valve with something that I can adjust and then lock.

The thing that takes time in preparing for the test is finding and fixing the sharp edges.

Steve

[FridgeFreezer]

Andy,

I'd say the only definitive way to tell is to contact the DVLA and ask their opinion - and if at all possible, get it in writing or some official form. Just to avoid immediate trouble you may want to phrase your questions as "What if I..." rather than "I have done..."

[Eddie]

I am just starting a challenge truck build myself, After HOURS of wasted time on the phone to the DVLA and VOSA offices I was getting nowhere so decided to visit my local DVLA office, They are the ones that will tell you if your truck needs a SVA test.

10 minutes later I walked out a happy bunny after being told I wouldn't need a SVA test for the modifications I'd described.

Basically I was told I could replace my 90 rear cross member with a winch mounting as long as I didn't shorten the chassis, This was the answer I was looking for because I still want to keep some useable storage space so my "tray" would be no shorter than the 90 rear tub was, In fact the "tray" will probably be a touch longer. (My aim is to reduce body damage without going too radical).

They were also happy with me not keeping the original rear tub as they are more concerned with the vehicle description which I was told would still be a "Lighty 4X4 Utility".

So returning to Nigel's original post.......My local DVLA office would be cool with "challenge front wings", They are not a chassis mod and it would still be described the same on your V5.

[Les Brock]

Commercial SVA £60

Seems to be no set in stone answer, as ask at one office it will need an SVA and another it wont , seems you've just got the hope that the bloke that looks at your's "got his leg over last night" and your alright

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Evening All,

If I could just intervien, ....if I could just squeeze through and move some of these small teddies aside and just come through here - thanks - yep and just - oh thanks.....ah ha here I am back in the thread - so, er - I would just like to maybe drag this topic by the hair screaming back to the original post around 'challenge front wings' if thats ok with you all ?

WHO THREW THAT ????

OK.......

I have an update from the DVLA, and its neutral if not maybe positive.

I have had an in depth e-mail, which has covered a raft of things and has asked for some very specific and detailed responses from them - I have done this and wait the reply back.

Again they have been very reasonable and helpfull, and I hope to have an update around the legality and more importantly maybe what would... and would not... be okay 'challenge wing' stylee

Thats all from me, .......may the squabbling recommence shortly...Excuse me............. coming through

Nige

[V8CAMEL]

Evening All,

If I could just intervien, ....if I could just squeeze through and move some of these small teddies aside and just come through here - thanks - yep and just - oh thanks.....ah ha here I am back in the thread - so, er - I would just like to maybe drag this topic by the hair screaming back to the original post around 'challenge front wings' if thats ok with you all ?

WHO THREW THAT ????

OK.......

I have an update from the DVLA, and its neutral if not maybe positive.

I have had an in depth e-mail, which has covered a raft of things and has asked for some very specific and detailed responses from them - I have done this and wait the reply back.

Again they have been very reasonable and helpfull, and I hope to have an update around the legality and more importantly maybe what would... and would not... be okay 'challenge wing' stylee

Thats all from me, .......may the squabbling recommence shortly...Excuse me............. coming through

Nige

presumably once you get a response you will post it so we can all read it

cheers

paul

btw that was my favourite teddy you squashed as you threw the door open

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

btw that was my favourite teddy you squashed as you threw the door open

:rofl:

Nige