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mid mounted winch


oakeedokee
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I've been trying to find a thread I read a while back on a mid-mounted winch ie: one that runs to the rear of the vehicle, around a pulley and returns through a conduit to the front, so it can be used for pulling forward as normal, or backwards if the cable is pulled away from the pulley and a snatch block is used. I thought it was on this forum, but cannot find it. Anyone know where this thread exists, or if not does anyone have any info on such a system?

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You've pretty much described it. One of the guys in Malaysia had one in his 110 crew cab and it was a very effective system, albeit somewhat noisy in the cab. His was PTO driven.

Rear pulleys

Album_54_DSCN0326a.jpg

Center mounted PTO winch (with interesting A/C unit above!!!) sorry it's sideways - see drum mounted at floor level

Album_54_DSCN0316a.jpg

Fabulous color scheme and critical Danish formulated creative juice and power pack on pulley unit:

Album_54_DSCN0314a.jpg

Sorry - only photos I could find of it. He ran some tubing along the chassis rails where needed but as I recall the idea was to minimize the amount of tubing as replacement of the winch line would otherwise be a bit of a beatch.

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HI, I tried a midwinch recently but found it not very userfriendly: the problem of not being able to see the drum gave all sorts of situations and now I will revert back to a winch at the front and one at the back.

The system as shown on the landrover also has 2 pulley blocks (at least) which would add to the drag enormous.

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I posted the thread about the system I was designing/fitting to my 90 when we were on the old LRE forum.

Most people rubbished it though. You can'do this, you can't do that.

Been using it for two years now. Bunching cable not a problem.

Whether it will suit you depends on what you intend to do with the vehicle.

If you are going to do proper challenges lack of freespool will slow you down.

If you greenlane or trial you get a better aproach angle and better weight distribution.

What do you want to know?

Richard

PS. Trev, you have a good memory.

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Not really, its tucked away between the rear tub floor and a metal mounting plate.

However I can try to describe it.

I have two pulleys about 2cm apart 30cm in front of the winch drum, so the plasma rope centres between them and feeds on to the drum in the middle. Then as it fills up it works off to the sides.

The more distance you put between these 'centering' pulleys and the winch drum the better it spools off to each side as the cable builds up.

Although a centre mounted style winch it is actually mounted about 50cm inside the rear crossmember.

Richard

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PS. Trev, you have a good memory.

Thanks but I like interresting tech and someone doing something different, even if the face of doubters, is well worth remembering. Pleased to hear it worked out well.

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The system as shown on the landrover also has 2 pulley blocks (at least) which would add to the drag enormous.

Could you use plasma and where Top 90 used 2 pulleys to feed, replace with an alloy fairlead...?

Surely the compressive forces on the chassis could be minimised by running the cable in line with a chassis rail...?

Anyone remember the centre mounted winch that went out through the top of the roll cage..?? True 360 capability

Cheers

Peter

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Hadn't thought about the freespool problem, but I'm sure that can be overcome with a compressed air system. I was more interested in the forces involved and how much strengthening would be required around the pulley area. It would be constantly trying to squeeze the winch mounting point and the pulley mounting point towards each other. There's plenty of room under the floor of my bobtail to fit the winch (Warn M12000). I'd assumed that the further away the winch is from the pulley the less likely the cable is to bunch up. Also the cable route to the front of the vehicle. Running it along a chassis leg sounds like a good idea, but how about running it in a u-section channel rather than in a tubular conduit to allow easier cable access?

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Hadn't thought about the freespool problem, but I'm sure that can be overcome with a compressed air system. I was more interested in the forces involved and how much strengthening would be required around the pulley area. It would be constantly trying to squeeze the winch mounting point and the pulley mounting point towards each other. There's plenty of room under the floor of my bobtail to fit the winch (Warn M12000). I'd assumed that the further away the winch is from the pulley the less likely the cable is to bunch up. Also the cable route to the front of the vehicle. Running it along a chassis leg sounds like a good idea, but how about running it in a u-section channel rather than in a tubular conduit to allow easier cable access?

My rope does not run in any form of U channel or conduit. It runs along a series of eyelets on the chassis so access is very good and its much easier if you need to replace the plasma. It does not catch on anything as is up on the side of the chassis.

To get over any problems with forces around the winch and pulleys they are all mounted on one large metal plate which has four mounting points to the rear crossmember and two to the side chassis rails. This turns the rear 2 foot of the chassis in to a very strong object.

The pulleys have a layer of 5mm steel either side and are nylon (rated to 20 tons) for the plasma rope, and I have not seen any wear around the pulley area or anywhere else.

Although this mounting and set up is not light at about 30KG, it does help balance a truck cab quite well.

Hope this helps.

Richard

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You can see John Foers' original patent applications here but, as the name suggests, it's patented.

Interesting patent application....

Why did he patent it, as it seems fairly obvious from the fact that most of the postings on this thread are of peoples own interpretations of the setup he has described. I have considered an alternate method to this, which wouldn't infringe on the patent, but am I correct in thinking that John decided to patent this to stop commercial development of a solution..??

Cheers

Peter

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I dont think the patent does a lot, it is after all an application of an existing device. The setup shown on the LR 110 would not infringe on this patent, because he hasnt got his rear towpoint as part of the setup.

I have been involved in patent searches, or more importantly, how to get round them and it is not hard. This makes me believe that most patents are a waste of time.

Still, my opinion is that for occasional use it is a workable system, but for continues use such as winch challenge events, it is not that practical. Feel free to prove me wrong.

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The worst thing about owning a patent is that it's your responsibility to defend it; you have to prove that the other party has infringed your design. For the sake of taking someone to court because they've welded some pulleys to their own private car, not worth the solicitor's fees. The patent will defend Foers against the likes of Scrapiron etc though.

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The worst thing about owning a patent is that it's your responsibility to defend it; you have to prove that the other party has infringed your design. For the sake of taking someone to court because they've welded some pulleys to their own private car, not worth the solicitor's fees. The patent will defend Foers against the likes of Scrapiron etc though.

John, I think the differance comes when its done commercially. A one man band doing it for him self is not doing it for commercial gain so I think it would be impossible to proove infringment of the patent. Whereas if Scrapiron, or any other company for that matter, came up with a simeralr kit then I reckon they'd have a pretty strong case.

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it didnt protect equipe from them though....

<_<

I was under the impression that Scrap stuff was mostly bought in and sold at a hefty profit, rather than borrowing the design??

Which is the technique for Scrap metal merchants the world over :lol:

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So, back to the thread topic....

Still, my opinion is that for occasional use it is a workable system, but for continues use such as winch challenge events, it is not that practical. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Daan, Having used this system I feel you are right.

For general laning and offroading days/holidays it works fine, but winch events etc.. will mean you lose too much time as it can be fiddly for rear pulls and no freespool. An Ibex system is quicker though so you may disagee, but Ed Cobley uses two winches on his Ibex.

Richard

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Could you use plasma and where Top 90 used 2 pulleys to feed, replace with an alloy fairlead...?

Surely the compressive forces on the chassis could be minimised by running the cable in line with a chassis rail...?

Anyone remember the centre mounted winch that went out through the top of the roll cage..?? True 360 capability

Cheers

Peter

You could use a alloy fairlead, but the standard width fairleads will not solve the spooling problem.

To overcome spooling problems on multi layer winch drums such as our winches:

1. The throat of the fairlead (or space between pulleys) needs to be as narrow as possible (considerably less than the width between the winch drum flanges). If too wide the rope will build up on the side of the drum where the rope leads from.

2. The fleet angle of the rope (the angle between the centreline and the rope from the drum flange to the fairlead) should be approx 2 degrees.

If the fleet angle is too small, the rope will build up against the drum flange. If too great, the rope will build up near the centre of the drum.

Pneumatic actuators are a good solution for operation the free spool. This is not so much of a problem for a high mount which has a high power out speed.

Even when the winch spools in a reliable fashion, if the drum is not visible, you still need some way to ensure that the rope has sufficient turns on the drum before it is used under load.

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