Landcruiser Axles

[protoprincess]

I love landcruisers and I want one

[discojmz]

This could probably do with being in a seperate topic, but I'll let someone else decide

out of interest, what would people put the price difference between the LR CV and a TLC CV down to?

extra tech behind the LR one to make it as strong as the larger TLC unit?

the fact we just cant make anything as cheaply as elsewhere to the same standard?

what I refer to as Land Rover 'scene tax'?

Personally I dont use my vehicle in enough anger to justify uprated axle internals, but in the future should that change, the TLC route would be the one I definitely took, or perhaps the Patrol route, both are available to me financially, both available to me in the physical availability stakes, and theres more and more tech relating to the fitment of such items that I can be confident of a grown up being there to talk me through it when I inevitably get stuck.

Portals would be brilliant, but they dont for me fit the criteria of justifiable cost or availability. (plus of course you will tip over, set on fire and surely die!) but as someone who is comparably just getting into the scene, and will be looking to change things up in the future, the above with the jap axles, I find of utmost importance.

let's face it, how many of us love land rovers because they are hands down better than anything else, and how many of us love landrovers because theyre bewitching, they get under your skin and its more a personal statement than anything else?

we dont have to bag on land rover stuff because it's rubbish, we dont have to bag on Jap stuff because its not land rover. When innovation clashes with stalwart loyalty, it's purely a show of people who care about what they do. Everyone chooses a different path. what is right for one, is wrong for the other. I dont think that there is even an argument here to have.

[Timmy511]

WOW, hand bags at dawn!

cheers for the advice, i wouldnt be replacing anything on the axle (if i get a set) untill they break! its a false economy and my off road project has to be kept to a shoe string budget as its one of my many hobbies and partly my uni project for my final year!

as for that salisbury, (i think its PA blanchards who are selling it), its way over priced and they weigh a ton!

alegedly i can have a pair of toy axles for 300 quid, with lockers and then spen a couple of weeks cutting old mounting off axles and welding them on new axles, it seems a lot better deal to me. and itll really annoy my uncle brian when he sees a toyota part bolted to my landrover, and knowing i have 1 more locker than him, he'll prolly never talk to me again! hehehe!

[dollythelw]

well said Discojmz

(you forgot to mention kittens exploding as a result of non-genuine parts fitment but its not as common a consquence)

[Paul Humphreys]

I love landcruisers and I want one

After 20 years of LRs I got one and I know of another for sale!!

Paul

[plasticbadger]

I don't understand why people seem to encourage the idea that it's better to drop £3k into Rover axles than crack the welder out and spend £300 on TLC or whatever else. It's not helping innovation and it's not helping the sport.

I suppose if I'd spent £3k on axle internals and someone achieved the same thing for £300 I might be bitter and slag them off on the internet

My sentiments exactly fridge!

Back to my earlier point before people started discussing how long it takes to get parts from the States, (by the way I regularily get reasonably large boat parts over night, just a question paying for it!) -

By spending £300 on Jap axles rather than £3000 on bits to go in your LR axles you don't just improve the internals. The LC axles come with huge vented discs all round, bigger steering arms, stronger casings, bigger bearings, double sealed swivel balls, abs rings and larger crown wheels. Not to mention on-axle handbrake mechainisms just waiting to be turned into fiddle brakes. Start trying to do that to a LR axle and you're into stupid money and major engineering.

It's about time more people think outside the box and stop trying to make something bad work better and just replace it with something that's already good.

[Bowie69]

One thing about LC axles I am interested in is the ABS system....

Would you be able to plug it up to the Rangie system, without getting mega-complicated or expensive? Would you use the Rangie sensors, the LC ones... anyone have ANY idea?

If/when I get a/some locker(s) then it is an interesting way to go about it, and when you think about it, not THAT much fabrication work involved.....

[protoprincess]

After 20 years of LRs I got one and I know of another for sale!!

Paul

Finances need to recover a bit from the Vepssky adventure first

But come on - tempt me

Zuz

[FridgeFreezer]

Without knowing the exact details of both systems, most ABS does work in broadly the same way - you have a toothed ring on each wheel's drive (either on the CV, the shaft, the hub, brake disc, etc.) and a sensor that detects the teeth flying past. Usually all four wheels will be sending roughly the same speed pulses, but if one suddenly stops / slows drastically then the ABS kicks in to release the brakes on that wheel to try to match the others. There's more to it than that, but that's the gist of it. ETC works the same but in reverse - it detects a wheel spinning up and dabs the brake to that wheel.

It's entirely possible the RR ABS system would work with the TLC axles, or could be made to work fairly easily. The sensors fall into only a few types (inductive, hall effect, optical) and may be swappable unless one or the other uses something really bizarre. Unlike engine crank trigger wheels, the ECU should not care how many teeth are on the wheel, only the relative speeds between the four wheels.

[white90]

I appreciate your views but a couple of points:

where does 3k figure come from?

if you refer to my spend(a guess)

then 5years ago things were a little behind where we are today

Maxidrive only available as personal import or via x1 supplier hence the expense but that was £880 ARBs were 1200 inc compressor fitted the £450 on CVs

so still £2.5k for both axles but not three.

John unlike you we aren't all lucky to have mates who can help fit Volvo Portals

or skilled enough ourselves to graft of alternate makes of axles

so that leaves us with L/R axles and upgrades.

Now days people are moving way forward just look at Jez's trucks from Pig>Mouse.

Each to their own, and with that thought I'll move on

[pugwash]

Without knowing the exact details of both systems, most ABS does work in broadly the same way - you have a toothed ring on each wheel's drive (either on the CV, the shaft, the hub, brake disc, etc.) and a sensor that detects the teeth flying past. Usually all four wheels will be sending roughly the same speed pulses, but if one suddenly stops / slows drastically then the ABS kicks in to release the brakes on that wheel to try to match the others. There's more to it than that, but that's the gist of it. ETC works the same but in reverse - it detects a wheel spinning up and dabs the brake to that wheel.

It's entirely possible the RR ABS system would work with the TLC axles, or could be made to work fairly easily. The sensors fall into only a few types (inductive, hall effect, optical) and may be swappable unless one or the other uses something really bizarre. Unlike engine crank trigger wheels, the ECU should not care how many teeth are on the wheel, only the relative speeds between the four wheels.

the toothed ABS ring is pressed onto the CVs with an inductive trigger coming down from the top of the steering knuckle. interestingly the trigger is made from stainless so it never rusts in place! Anyway all 4 wheels have the same trigger and produce the same signal (can't remember the voltage change but its all out there on the web)- i beleive the sensing side works exactly the same as those found on rangies, although the ABS acutation seems to be entirely different- for one thing its no problem to bleed the brakes- just bleed them as usual!

[Daan]

Damn, our tea party has taken off again.

1. my rover axles were about 2k finished.

2. if you go to events were mainly landys are attending, and you need a new CV,TRE, Wheelbearing, track rod, brake hose, UJ, Propshaft, Sparewheel or anything else, you are basically shafted with toyo axles, caus noone carries bits for them.

3. If the discussion is mainly about importing bits from the US, we can also buy Landy bits from the US, which are cheaper than ashcroft. Longfield are one of them, uncle bill (great basin rovers) the others.

4. Not everyone is HOFS; I could fit different axles under my wagon, but its not everyones job. Some people havent got the skills and frankly, the world is better of with save cars, and if everyone and their brother has a go at axle swaps, only god will help us(I hope). All this is before we spiral this into the road legal discussion.

5. Not mentioned yet: you can also fit toyo diffs to landrover axles, Mc namara is the name for this.

Anyway, what Do I know?

Daan

[FridgeFreezer]

where does 3k figure come from?

Rough guestimate based on what I've picked up from talking to various people, a quick trawl round Ashcrofts site gets close enough:

CV's = 425

Diff pegging = 240 per diff

Drive flanges = 90 / pair

ARBs = 475 each + compressor

HD Shafts = 235 front / 260 rear

That's nudging £2500 right there, chuck in uprated R&P's, a breakage or two, or a ratio change and you're well on the way. But hell, that's academic when we're talking about a pair of lockered axles that costs less than the ARB alone.

John unlike you we aren't all lucky to have mates who can help fit Volvo Portals

I wouldn't count it as "luck", the team works through a series of reciprocal favours and a hell of a lot of hard work from all sides. It's not like we're the only people in the world capable of doing an axle swap, I hear some people will even attach axles to your vehicle in exchange for money these days. Mounting portals is no different than mounting TLC, Nissan, or anything else - and none of it's massively tricky if you can work a tape measure and have a brain in your head. Granted, the process does seem to elude some people who should know better but all the info is on this forum or in the wider world in general.

or skilled enough ourselves to graft of alternate makes of axles

so that leaves us with L/R axles and upgrades.

And not all of us have a chequebook big enough to stick with the Rover option, so that leaves us with whatever we can trawl up - be it a rotten TLC, a dead C303 or a scrap UniMog from eBay Germany.

Now, I say let's see more tech and less bitching.

[Bowie69]

Without knowing the exact details of both systems, most ABS does work in broadly the same way - you have a toothed ring on each wheel's drive (either on the CV, the shaft, the hub, brake disc, etc.) and a sensor that detects the teeth flying past. Usually all four wheels will be sending roughly the same speed pulses, but if one suddenly stops / slows drastically then the ABS kicks in to release the brakes on that wheel to try to match the others. There's more to it than that, but that's the gist of it. ETC works the same but in reverse - it detects a wheel spinning up and dabs the brake to that wheel.

It's entirely possible the RR ABS system would work with the TLC axles, or could be made to work fairly easily. The sensors fall into only a few types (inductive, hall effect, optical) and may be swappable unless one or the other uses something really bizarre. Unlike engine crank trigger wheels, the ECU should not care how many teeth are on the wheel, only the relative speeds between the four wheels.

That's pretty much as I thought it might be, but nice to hear from a grown up

When I have all the other things finished that I have on my list (and Bish stops selling me more kit to glue to it! ) I reckon I'll start looking into this a bit further

[FridgeFreezer]

the toothed ABS ring is pressed onto the CVs with an inductive trigger coming down from the top of the steering knuckle. interestingly the trigger is made from stainless so it never rusts in place! Anyway all 4 wheels have the same trigger and produce the same signal (can't remember the voltage change but its all out there on the web)- i beleive the sensing side works exactly the same as those found on rangies, although the ABS acutation seems to be entirely different- for one thing its no problem to bleed the brakes- just bleed them as usual!

Aha, back on track with some decent tech then

If the sensors are just variable reluctance (2-wire, basically a magnet with a coil of wire round it) then the output voltage will not matter overly (and will vary massively with wheel speed), the ECU will probably trigger on the zero-crossing, so as the waveform drops through 0v or rises up through 0v, that will count as one pulse.

[plasticbadger]

I've thought about this ABS thing quite a great deal - in Plasticbadger dream vapour build land there's a section where I throw away my Tdi and fit the TLC axles under my Td5 and link up the ABS and TC to the TLC sensors

The TLC sensors do just have the two connections, and presumably all the systems work on making and breaking the circuit as each tooth goes by. The number of teath could maybe have an effect on the HDC of the Discovery, but that's only if triggers the speed from the ABS sensors. Otherwise, in theory, it would work.

Now, let me just dream of a Td5 powered, lockered, traction controlled Discovery for under £4000 (before that figure starts a fight battered Td5 = £3000, axles £500, fit for less than £500)

[muddy]

1k would put a td5 in your tdi, but heck chuck abit more in the pot and you are into LS land

[FridgeFreezer]

presumably all the systems work on making and breaking the circuit as each tooth goes by

In a word, no. The sensors are more like a microphone, they put out an AC signal that flaps up and down as teeth fly past. The whole setup is very low current, although at speed you can get quite high voltages out of VR sensors.

[plasticbadger]

Sorry, on another note about the argument between swaps and upgrades:

I've always been concious that what i've done to my truck isn't for everybody, some don't have the skills, patience, space or time, while some just want to stay Landrover.

For me it was about having something that unless I made it I couldn't afford to have, not to metion the satisfaction of building something myself.

Now i've got great respect for those who pour £thousands into uprating their landrover bits and I'm not going to say there's not a place for showing us the builds on the forum, as it's what dreams and made from. But what interests me is the man who builds something different from nothing and skins his own knuckles doing it - some of the trucks of Russia are a great example.

[plasticbadger]

1k would put a td5 in your tdi, but heck chuck abit more in the pot and you are into LS land

Yes, but the body on my Tdi is F*&%^$d and every hole is full of mud, none of the electrics work, I could go on....

In a word, no. The sensors are more like a microphone, they put out an AC signal that flaps up and down as teeth fly past. The whole setup is very low current, although at speed you can get quite high voltages out of VR sensors.

Darn, I bow to your better knowledge

[Bowie69]

Bit more info on the VR sensors here, for the electrically-minded folk, or those that are interested....

http://www.infolytica.com/en/coolstuff/ex0128/

As Puggy says, the TLC axles use the VR type, similar to the Rangie ones, so I would suspect the signals to be similar as well... Does anyone know which manufacturer Toyota used for the ABS ECU? It' migth be possible to find out the specs, and expected inputs before trying this out...

It might well be possible to just splice the wires and cross your fingers -they'd need to be good splices however, probably similar to satellite cable screw together connectors... IIRC from another RR ABS thread they are shielded coaxial cables...

[FridgeFreezer]

It might well be possible to just splice the wires and cross your fingers -they'd need to be good splices however, probably similar to satellite cable screw together connectors... IIRC from another RR ABS thread they are shielded coaxial cables...

TBH they'd probably cope with a normal unshielded splice as the amount of exposed unshielded wire will be relatively small. Some manufacturers run unshielded wire for VR sensors, EDIS works happily with unshielded wire.

[pugwash]

As Puggy says, the TLC axles use the VR type, similar to the Rangie ones, so I would suspect the signals to be similar as well... Does anyone know which manufacturer Toyota used for the ABS ECU? It' migth be possible to find out the specs, and expected inputs before trying this out...

hey are badged as Nippon Denso and i'm not taking mine apart to see who manufactured it inside!

will have a look in the workshop manual tomorrow to see if it gives voltage readings for the sensors.

[Guest WALFY]

where does 3k figure come from?

Rough guestimate based on what I've picked up from talking to various people, a quick trawl round Ashcrofts site gets close enough:

CV's = 425

Diff pegging = 240 per diff

Drive flanges = 90 / pair

ARBs = 475 each + compressor

HD Shafts = 235 front / 260 rear

That's nudging £2500 right there, chuck in uprated R&P's, a breakage or two, or a ratio change and you're well on the way. But hell, that's academic when we're talking about a pair of lockered axles that costs less than the ARB alone.

I have this set up on my 90. Ashcroft CV's/shafts/drive members/ARB's. After a couple of months of pestering Dave with all sorts of questions I opted to go his route. I needed a new CW&P. And that lot cost me a tad over 2k. I sold my 10 spl ARB's and recouped just under 1k. So at the end of the day I was happy with a bomb proof axle setup. Well bomb proof as far as I go.

As for a breakage or 2. That's what the guarantee is for!!!

I have a brother in law that could weld a new set of axles on for me but he has his own truck to sort and he looks after another challenge truck. Both his and the other 1 compete in the same challenge series. So he's fairly busy. I choose to go Ashcroft for the fact as stated in a post ^^up there that commonality of parts is good. Someone at any event I compete at will have the same spares package that I have or would need.

[nicks90]

i'm pretty sure i read on an Oz forum that the landcruiser front axle is pretty much a straight fit on a LR.

the radius arms are the same distance apart on the axle casing, the arms are also the same length and slot into the existing mounts on the LR chassis and the spring seats are in the right place and just need LR spring cups bolting in their place.

Is this correct?

if so, its pretty much an easy swap.

Even if they arent -

how much would it cost for an adult (eg a blacksmith or metal shop) to take delivery of 2 LR axles and 2 TLC axles - carefully cut off the lr brackets and weld them to the TLC axles in the right spot?

thats 2 radius arm mounts, panhard rod mount and spring seats on the front axle,

A-frame bracket and 2 little brackets for the radius arms and 2 spring seats on the back axle .

I can chuck a weld on a bit of steel, but i dont think i'd attempt this myself as i dont have that sort of confidence in my abilities - but a pro with a decent high power mig/tig and a plasma cutter could probably do it in half a day. £500 in labour? and £500 for a pair of axles.

so thats £1000 for 2 lockered toyota axles ready to fit, all done by a professional.

And how much is it for pair of ARBs and compressor?

I love landies, completely nutty about them - but i have absolutely no qualms about ripping substandard rubbish off them and replacing it with decent stuff if my offroad usage demanded stronger parts. TLC axles appear to be an excellent and highly cost effective solution.