Diesel Engine Porn

[plasticbadger]

I've been reading a few good threads recently about 'which engine should I use' and 'should I go petrol or diesel' and similar, so I thought I'd open a thread to discuss the merits of the diesel options.

I build high performance boats, most of which are diesel powered, so I spend a fair amount of time looking into the latest diesel developments. So here's a few that should fit into a Land Rover (from mild to wild):

We all know about the 2.8L TGV version of the Tdi, but even 135hp and 277lb/ft can be bettered, so -

Steyr Motors offer a range of light weight Monoblock (head and block are one casting)engines. The 4 cyl is a bit small, but the 3.2L 6 offers 218hp and 460Nm torque.

Marine Diesel mostly offer engines based on the AM General Hummer V8. This is good old fashioned mechainical diesel tech and the base 6.5L engine has 170hp and 430Nm. It is available in supercharged form and upto nearly 425hp / 800Nm, though some people have reported problems on the higher output engines. They have now started working on twin supercharged and turbocharged versions of the new 32 valve Chevy Duramax engine.

Banks Power specialise in tuning American pickup diesel engines (400hp+ Chevy Duramax 32 valve engines are common), their top speciality though is a twin turbo charged custom built 6.15L engine offering up to 1100hp!

So, anybody fancy stuffing any of those into their Land Rover, or what are your suggestions?

[dollythelw]

The Steyr works for me, I'd give it a go if something fruity turned up within budget (free)

[FridgeFreezer]

Given the TGV's capacity to lunch the entire drivetrain I would have reservations about dropping anything more powerful than the LR TDi's into a Land Rover, it seems to be the lumpiness of the torque from the diesel that destroys things as people running petrol engines making similar or better numbers just don't seem to suffer.

That's not to open up any sort of petrol/diesel debate, just to say that there may be more to it than just dropping it in.

[Bill Shurvinton]

The isuzu common rail V8 that GM sell as the duramax is a stonking engine. Nearly bought my friends pickup to have shipped over here for that engine. Problem with it is eating transmissions. Chevy fit it to a 6 speed Allison auto which is superb but massive (in the sense of having lots of mass).

The cummins I6 engines are also good. Banks did a bonneville pickup with one of those a few years back which did 200MPH, then towed its own trailer back. Same issue with transmissions. In the Dodge pickups they seriously downrated the torque as the box wouldn't cope.

Put that same I6 in a motorhome where there is room and mass budget for the gearbox and its very impressive. IIRC 250HP...everywhere. TC locks up at 1500RPM As no longer needed. Whilst very drunk in the US with same friend with pickup (who also had motorhome) we worked out that peak torque was just under 1000ftlbs stupidly low RPM. great for the intended purpose.

For a LR derived vehicle I am not so sure. It's a lot of weight...

[pugwash]

I'd question what a Megasquirt specialist knows about Diesel engines :D (only kidding bill- couldn't resist)

Duramax is hmmmmmmmmmm lovely though

quite fancy the toyota 4.2 straight 6 (yep utterly biased on that one)- BUT you can get 260-300bhp out of them and well over 450lb/ft- the marinised versions make 300bhp as standard- and they are not THAT heavy. In landcruiser trim they make just under 200bhp and 380lb/ft

[Bill Shurvinton]

I'd question anyone who thinks I'm a specialist !

[Paul Humphreys]

I'd question what a Megasquirt specialist knows about Diesel engines :D (only kidding bill- couldn't resist)

Duramax is hmmmmmmmmmm lovely though

quite fancy the toyota 4.2 straight 6 (yep utterly biased on that one)- BUT you can get 260-300bhp out of them and well over 450lb/ft- the marinised versions make 300bhp as standard- and they are not THAT heavy. In landcruiser trim they make just under 200bhp and 380lb/ft

I am sure there use to be a kit to fit the old 4.0l stright into LRs.

Paul

[GARY ANDREWS]

is there not a good diesel engine that gives you your cake and get to eat it ie powerful and light.

[FridgeFreezer]

is there not a good diesel engine that gives you your cake and get to eat it ie powerful and light.

Probably - the newer generation diesels are getting pretty good but they all feature electronics which repel LR Owners like a crucifix repels zombies

[Bill Shurvinton]

Depends what you mean by powerful as well. A lot of the modern common rail engines that are more complex than any petrol (5 injection events per cylinder per combustion event) produce lots of power in a small car. Would they last lugging a 2 ton truck with 3 ton trailer? Probably not.

[kkk2]

I run an mwm 4.2 6cyl turbo intercooled onto a lt77 in a 110,( 500nm, (350approx bhp)) have to say its the best truck I have ever owned and really Landrover should have considered putting a bigger than 2.5 diesel into their range.Mwm/International will be familar as they brought the modified 2.8 based on the 300 tdi. consider my engine as +1.5 version of the 2.8 :D . I have the same transmission since the conversion which was four years ago. Truck does road and offroad stuff on a regular basis. Truck is running 35 inch tyres and a 1.2 xfer box.

[T1G UP]

The TD4 motors a good one 2.0L tdi 150-210 hp in a bmw

[Raumer]

The 5 injections per cycle on car engines is more a marketing feature than a performance one. The vast majority of the time they are running with one or two injections per cycle. Trucks are still running with one injection almost everywhere although the systems are capable of a lot more! They do run much higher pressure though.

I was wondering whether the likes of Volvo or DAF's 13 litre truck lump could be bolted in and then miss out the gearbox!

Ed

[plasticbadger]

Ah, some good options.

Just to point out I did think that stuffing a 500hp+ diesel engine into a landrover would lead to some drive chain modifications! I didn't even turn up my Tdi until I had the Landcruiser axles fitted.

I like the Landcruiser 4.2 idea. In the boats we've used upto 380hp and 700Nm, from an engine that weighs less than 400kg (I know, a lot heavier than a Rover V8, but then it would run under water without any mods)

I'd disgree that there's no diesel engine that is powerful and light. The BMW 4 cyl 2L produces 180hp + with 300Nm+ and weighs about 200kg. The Banks twin turbo produces 1100hp+ and weighs no more than a LS1. The technology is there, it's just not as accessable as the petrol tech yet.

PS, Jez could ask around about a 'free' Steyr 6 for you if you like...

[gruntus]

I wonder why no one ever mentions Audi engines.

I remember when the first 2.5 TD V6 with 150BHP standard came out (early A4 and A6's if i remember correctly) and figured what a great engine to put in a 90.

There must be loads of them out there now cheap enough to buy complete with electrics (yes I know crucifix time ).

Anyone ever seen an Audi lump in a 90?

Oh and there was the April fool chap who claimed to have put a 1.4 TDi Audi A2 engine into a 90. The figures all worked out but the pictures were never forthcoming.

Cheers

G

[JimAttrill]

is there not a good diesel engine that gives you your cake and get to eat it ie powerful and light.

Well ..... going back to the thirties there was the Junkers Jumo six-cylinder twelve opposed pistons and two cranks. Light because there are no cylinder heads. And then Napier took the same engine and made the Deltic with three cranks eighteen cylinders and 36 pistons. Of course the Junkers was an aircraft engine so had to be light. But it can be done.

[will_warne]

I'd disgree that there's no diesel engine that is powerful and light. The Banks twin turbo produces 1100hp+ and weighs no more than a LS1. The technology is there, it's just not as accessable as the petrol tech yet.

Really???? The LS engines are bloody light for their power and size!

For me, though, I think the biggest advantage a diesel offers is in simplicity and lack of electrics. IF you go for a modern diesel engine there are a lot of electrics to think about and when you get to that stage then you loose that advantage over a petrol engine. It then comes down to weighting up the petrol power band vs additional economy of a diesel. Personally I think a big power band starting low down is essential and that means big cubes.

That was the reason I like the 2.8tgv as it was simple, made good figures (International did/do a 200bhp version but getting hold of details is hard - I think it is a maritime version), was reasonably light and compact - the only downside was the relatively small power band. Similar things go for the Isuzu 2.8 which is really compact. Its old tech but it's been shown to work!

[plasticbadger]

Really???? The LS engines are bloody light for their power and size!

For me, though, I think the biggest advantage a diesel offers is in simplicity and lack of electrics. IF you go for a modern diesel engine there are a lot of electrics to think about and when you get to that stage then you loose that advantage over a petrol engine. It then comes down to weighting up the petrol power band vs additional economy of a diesel. Personally I think a big power band starting low down is essential and that means big cubes.

The Banks engine uses a custom made Dart aluminium block and aluminium heads, but it's a 16 valve, so saves weight on the valve chain side. The turbo gear adds weight, but the base engine is comparible or even lighter.

The big advantage of the higher powered modern electronic diesels is the torque rather than anything else. An LS1 350hp crate engine produces 365lb/ft of torque. A standard Chevy Duramax diesel produces 365hp and 660lb/ft of torque - that's a BIG difference considering the two engines are a similar capacity and the weight difference isn't huge (the duramax is all ali too).

[MogLite]

The Banks twin turbo produces 1100hp+ and weighs no more than a LS1

So what is the base diesel for that ?

I've got a twin-turbo Cummins 5.9 on the wish-list for way in the future.

I'm reckoning on an engine weight in excess of 1000lbs

According to this an LS1 is under 500lbs

[sparg]

so, over on the "best land rover ever" thread, I'm trying to find if the expertise on this forum can design a landrover defender that's better than the one we've got.

So, an engine range, from the merely good, to the extraordinary, would look like what? - does it have to have lots of dealer-only maintainable electronic gubbins to get good weight/performance ratio?

[FridgeFreezer]

So, an engine range, from the merely good, to the extraordinary, would look like what? - does it have to have lots of dealer-only maintainable electronic gubbins to get good weight/performance ratio?

Electronics don't have to be dealer-only, it's just as easy to make them standards compliant - but of course there's no money in that

[plasticbadger]

So what is the base diesel for that ?

I'm reckoning on an engine weight in excess of 1000lbs

I've made a mistake - the Banks twin turbo is in fact a petrol engine - the entire basis for my argument has fallen flat. The engine is a custom made all aluminium version of the 350ci Chevy engine of old.

On the diesel front then as a comparison the Banks Chevy Duramax (based on the Izusu 32 valve 6.6L) puts out 495hp and 904lb/ft, but compared to the weight you've found for the LS1 Andy it is quite a lot heavier at 836lb (380kg) - a mighty 160kg more!

[kkk2]

Mwm in mine is 280 kgs

[Lara]

Audi Q7 V12 6 Litre 500 bhp and 1000nm@1750 to 3000

and only 687mm long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nuf said!

Lara

Cost? Ah! small snag

[plasticbadger]

so, over on the "best land rover ever" thread, I'm trying to find if the expertise on this forum can design a landrover defender that's better than the one we've got.

So, an engine range, from the merely good, to the extraordinary, would look like what? - does it have to have lots of dealer-only maintainable electronic gubbins to get good weight/performance ratio?

From the replies above so far we could break down a possible Land Rover 'range' as:

Mechainical injection:

2.8TGV - 4.2 MWM or 4.2 Toyota - 6.5 AM General

Electronic injection:

2.0L BMW or Audi - 3.2 Steyr - 6.6 Duramax or V12 Audi!

One point though, Steyr do the 2.1 4cyl, the 3.2 6cyl and are working on a 4L + V8, so they could cover it all from one manufacturer.