Video

[GBMUD]

thanks for the lesson, I'll bear it in mind next time I drive over a swamp

out of interest how do you think I arrived at the ground pressure ?

could I use the same arguement that we should all be using low ground pressure vehicles? moosebuggies? karakats? argocats? are landrovers really appropriate?

Like I said, I did not wish to insult you.

I seem to have mis-read your original post, you were refering to portals NOT changing the ground pressure and I took it the other way. I stand by the deeper ruts argument though.

As for Argocats and the like, if we want to cross bog and soft ground without the need for winches and the like then yes, we should. Are Landrovers appropriate? Yes, in their place, they are.

Chris

[bathtub]

What is it with LR driving muppets if i was a farmer i would prefer to have 15" wide 21" deep ruts that collapse on themselves & fill up ,than a 6ft wide 2ft deep hole as they winch 2 tonne of rust & simex through.

Even better 44" boggers & 800hp flat out & skimming the top.

Sorry i forgot Simex dont do 44" tyres & you cant fit anything bigger than 35s without breaking a 90 axles so lets not allow anything bigger .

Be honest COR just say you cant be bothered to organise an event tough enough !!!!!

[bathtub]

Can you send me a copy of the rule book please

peter@whitmanbevis.co.uk

Track width problem please explain as mines 7ft wide !!!!

[LR90]

Do you think there is anywhere suitable in the UK to run such an event?

[MogLite]

.....The thing with portals is that they lift the diff off the road further and therefor create deeper ruts which will take longer to weather and disappear.

Is that really true though. If you've got a track that has deep enough ruts, that LR diffs are bottoming out, any more LR traffic is just going to make a mess.

But with the extra ground clearance of portals it can be driven without masses of wheelspin, because the diffs aren't grounding.

If the ground is so soft that LR and portals sink up to their diffs, then surely the laws of gravity will see it heal relatively quickly ?

I've always maintained a badly driven underspec'd truck causes more damage than an over-spec'd one. Thats a perspective from greenlaning as well as site events.

[dollythelw]

tub - there are no track width problems with uncle Stihl sitting beside you 800? I cant stretch to that but Ive got 500 sat in a crate in Utah that'll ship in July

will ping out regs tomorrow instead of actually doing any work so anyone else want them please send me thier email addresses, theres already 180 teams booked in...

Chris, no offence taken, everyones entitled to thier own opinion but this is a pet subject and Im happy to debate it at length.

[GBMUD]

I am going to pick on Andy now...

Is that really true though. If you've got a track that has deep enough ruts, that LR diffs are bottoming out, any more LR traffic is just going to make a mess.

But with the extra ground clearance of portals it can be driven without masses of wheelspin, because the diffs aren't grounding.

If the ground is so soft that LR and portals sink up to their diffs, then surely the laws of gravity will see it heal relatively quickly ?

I've always maintained a badly driven underspec'd truck causes more damage than an over-spec'd one. Thats a perspective from greenlaning as well as site events.

I have (somewhat warn) 255/85 16s on my 90. New, they measure up at about 33", I guess mine must be down to about 32" by now. This week I drove a greenlane that was new to me and discovered that it was quite deeply rutted. As I progressed I could feel the Landrover grounding out on the centre and, looking in the mirror, I could see where the diffs had touched down. In the end I decided that it was looking like I might get stuck so I stopped and reversed out.

Now, a couple of years ago 255/85s were king, they were bigger than almost all of the competition and would get you through most places where the ruts had been made by 235/85s and 7.50s. I can only guess that the ruts have been caused to get deeper by the enormous swing towards 35" Simex (and other ~35" tires), attractive, no doubt, because of their larger diameter and more damaging, IMHO, because of their more aggressive tread pattern and of course, in part, by people spinning their wheels needlessly and recklessly, lets not forget that not everyone is as responsible as us.

Now portal axles are offering the same benefits again but multiplied several times (both in clearance gained and in cost!). I know that you guys are planning to use them on private land and that is fine with me but it is only a matter of time before they start being used on greenlanes and that can only be a bad thing. There will be, in your own words, "Masses of wheelspin". Fine if there is no chance of surface damage but there is always one idiot. This point is a bit beside the issue at hand but is relevant none the less.

Now the bottom line is, that in soft ground, with more axle clearance there will be deeper ruts after the passage of a large enough group of cars. See the guy in the video above walking in the ruts? They are deeper than any I have seen in the UK to date - other than those caused by industrial machimes of one kind or another.

Chris

[MogLite]

I am going to pick on Andy now...

Bring it on

Your reasoning is exactly why I don't greenlane anymore

Ibex and MogLite are both too extreme for greenlaning

38a is too posh.

Last time I greenlaned was a gentle trundle around in a classic rangie on 205's with my kids - which is exactly as it should be IMHO.

Landowners get paid handsomely for letting us on their land. On frequently used land, I've seen tracks evolve and disappear over several years - its not generally a problem.

[jules]

Bring it on

Your reasoning is exactly why I don't greenlane anymore

Ibex and MogLite are both too extreme for greenlaning

38a is too posh.

Last time I greenlaned was a gentle trundle around in a classic rangie on 205's with my kids - which is exactly as it should be IMHO.

Landowners get paid handsomely for letting us on their land. On frequently used land, I've seen tracks evolve and disappear over several years - its not generally a problem.

I'm fully with Andy on this.

(A part from I've seen Andy drive )

Yes cars and tyres have evolved when I first started the 750 Sat was the dogs but if a truck turns up with them now there not even classes as a agressive tyre as there so small.

I have not driven a green lane in abut three years and that was with the rally freelander but I found it so painfuly bouring cause a car that was built for speed I just felt guilt even getting close to opening her up.

What I do strongly disagree with is some challanges talk about useing local lanes to up the events milage which I think is very wrong.

[Lara]

Hi Chris,

You are absolutely right in your statement that on soft boggy ground with no bottom within reasonable reach the ruts etc will get deeper, but this is true with any vehicles driving over it, in the past we tended to stop if we were very stuck and go elsewhere but now the new breed of competition says proceed at all cost to ground! Is this the tyres fault? If on green lanes, we should keep off. If on the other hand organisers wish to make an event across similar ground then a vehicle with smaller wheels grounding out and being stubornly draged across it will definately cause more damage than just tyre rutts. I think it is for all of the organisers to think on this matter when inventing sections, We as organisers of ourselfs must think also.

The deep ruts as seen on the Ladoga will as Dolly says collaps in on themselfes very quickly, the softer the ground the faster this happens, Its like building a tall jelly "it can't be done above a sertain hight as the walls can not support it" Still makes a mess though

Lara.

[FridgeFreezer]

What I do strongly disagree with is some challanges talk about useing local lanes to up the events milage which I think is very wrong.

Agree with that, all you need is one bobble hat with a camera and "oh look, here's 20 big ugly simex+winch+lockered trucks steaming up a lane" I'm sure even if you drive sensibly with super agressive tyres there's going to be damage by the time the last truck has gone past.

Back to the main debate - who cares what axles/tyres you've got, if you can't drive you're still not going to get anywhere. Portals just mean you can get stuck deeper.

I don't see why people are worried about people building "madder" trucks, all this stuff has a payoff - sometimes an SJ will get somewhere a LR wouldn't, if people lay out events right it makes it level for everyone. If someone brings a Mog, all you need is to put a punch beyond two trees that are too close together so they have to go the hard way

[GBMUD]

I am glad that I can agree with everyone.

I love driving greenlanes, indeed I enjoy it as much as offroad driving but in a different way. It as always a shame to find they have been damaged. As such I keep my Landrover fairly standard in order to be able to drive lanes without causing (or being perceived to cause) damage. I have an ARB and BFGs for the sites I do go on - not many these days as I have a low ground pressure/low impact quad which is great fun.

I agree with Lara about keeping competitions off greenlanes - although I do have an idea for a "treasure hunt" type event... I agree about the ruts in the video healing fast, especialy in a colder country like Russia but I was really using them as an example of the depth of ruts it is possible to make - the same can happen in much more stable soil conditions where it can take much longer for the healing process to take place.

Did any of you guys ever go to Battle off-road site? Just wondering if anyone has been back since it closed? How do the (terrible) ruts look now, a few years on? The site that PaulW is plugging near Horsham is similar in many ways and, I suspect, will end up similarly rutted, especialy if it is used every month for playdays. A fantastic site for a comp though!

Chris

[GBMUD]

sometimes an SJ will get somewhere a LR wouldn't,

Here here. Can you tell I am harbouring a dark secret desire?

Chris

[dollythelw]

I have no intention of putting a race truck down a greenlane, too loud, too big and too scary for the general rambly mob (who incidentaly I cant stand being an ex-gamekeeper) but in order to ensure that they have less ammunition to use against those who use the lanes I personally wouldnt risk it.

The fella walking in the ruts in the Video is a reporter for HTB, what he's saying translates to "these ruts are over a metre deep on the proto course."

To put it in context the soil in the areas that rut heavily out there has the consistancy of angel delight. In the really soft stuff and the cars sink, its scary when the car starts to disappear to the point where the bottom of the windscreen is level with the ground

Every year the water rises and the tracks heal, the russians have no issue with making new roads whenever and wherever they need to because in 3-5 years the old ones disappear completely into the woods - ruts and all. In the swamp nothing crosses so its not an issue - but there only a fool follows another mans tracks as the skin of the swamp is weakened after one car rolls over it, the second car will just tear it and keep sinking

Tub - regs have been emailed over for you

Cheers

Jez

[will_warne]

Back to the main debate - who cares what axles/tyres you've got, if you can't drive you're still not going to get anywhere. Portals just mean you can get stuck deeper.

I don't see why people are worried about people building "madder" trucks, all this stuff has a payoff - sometimes an SJ will get somewhere a LR wouldn't, if people lay out events right it makes it level for everyone. If someone brings a Mog, all you need is to put a punch beyond two trees that are too close together so they have to go the hard way

Fridge, you hit the nail on the head. That was really the point I was trying to make to begine with. I don't really think the spec matters too much, its really what suits the driver and what he finds works best. In bogs there's no doubt wide, floaty tyres with loads of clearance is best but when you get into tight, clay soiled forests, you want narrower tyres and loads of manouverability. The person who can make a truck that can do everything will win hand down. That'll never happen, though.

I think ground damage is sometimes an issue but a lot of it depends on the terrain. If the soil's soft its going to be more suseptable to damage but it'll heal very quickly. The places that really suffer, though, are the harder soiled sites that do, eventually, rut but then take forever to recover.

Zed0, I wasn't thinking about your machine. Its very tidy. I don't think Volvo axles with 35" tyres is huge. I think 37" tyres with portals is probably going to be the next bench mark in the UK. Out of interest, though, why 88"??? I'm ust intregued as I'm going t do the opposite to my 90 some time soon and stretch the wheelbase by 7"

[dollythelw]

The Rangie in the picture belongs to Andy from Ruftracks, its a cut down four door, with a 2 door back end, dropped to 88" for the twisty stuff - its a tidy piece of work, Im teasing him about bullnosing it at the mo so maybe I will get my evil angle grinder to it at some stage.

so will 39.5 x 18 boggers raise the bar a bit then Will? normally I just like standing by the bar but I guess I'll just have to push it

like I said Margus's car will out turn a defender in anything twisty, not as much fun up hills but seeing the speed they winch at it never seems to be an issue, its not a lot wider either and it weighs about the same as a stock 90, book a flight and come and see them for yourself bring your defender and enter TR1 or 2?

[will_warne]

The Rangie in the picture belongs to Andy from Ruftracks, its a cut down four door, with a 2 door back end, dropped to 88" for the twisty stuff - its a tidy piece of work, Im teasing him about bullnosing it at the mo so maybe I will get my evil angle grinder to it at some stage.

so will 39.5 x 18 boggers raise the bar a bit then Will? normally I just like standing by the bar but I guess I'll just have to push it

like I said Margus's car will out turn a defender in anything twisty, not as much fun up hills but seeing the speed they winch at it never seems to be an issue, its not a lot wider either and it weighs about the same as a stock 90, book a flight and come and see them for yourself bring your defender and enter TR1 or 2?

Mmmm tempting but there's the time and money thing at the moment. I just seem to run out of both far too fast. I'll have a think about it, though.

40" boggers certainly are a little differant. How about you do the AFC this year? I'll deffinatly be doing it and it'd be good to see you competing over here.

Quick winches.... You'll like what I'm planning. It should raise the bar a fair bit (as long as it works) and it'll be nice and simple. More of that to follow in the not too distant future.

[dollythelw]

Yep, we're on for the AFC.

If you want a jet powered mega winch Im over in Germany this weekend doing a spot of mooching with the boys -

Anyone for a Robur PTO set at 3:1 ratio with auto spool guide and through-put pto shaft. re-enact those Ark Royal steam catapult launches of the 80's whilst sat in the comfort of a Landrover?

monster kit....

[will_warne]

Yep, we're on for the AFC.

If you want a jet powered mega winch Im over in Germany this weekend doing a spot of mooching with the boys -

Anyone for a Robur PTO set at 3:1 ratio with auto spool guide and through-put pto shaft. re-enact those Ark Royal steam catapult launches of the 80's whilst sat in the comfort of a Landrover?

monster kit....

Sounds interesting but I'm going for a slightly differant approch.