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4.6 Rangy head gaskets


Les Henson
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I have the above vehicle being delivered on Saturday and the history is that one of the head gaskets blew (water into the cylinder), the heads were (allegedly) skimmed and all was put back together. However, not long after the head gasket blew again - same syptoms. I understand this engine is differednt from it's smaller brothers with regards the cylinder bores? I've heard tales of the cylinder liners dropping and having to be replaced. Have any of you had experience of this please ?

Thanks for any help.

Les. :)

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4.6s have all sorts of problems, which 3.5 and 3.9 don't have.

Some can be seen visually and some can't.

Liner DO move, and this can cause real probs, the top builders use "Top Hat" Liners, which as the name implies has a lip at the top which the liner then cannot drop below or move, some are pinned into place.

If the liner is lower than the deck face of the top of the block then you are in a pile of "LR V8 Pooh", and lilely result is a short number of mikles with new head gaskets before it goes again.

There are these expensive glues on the market for helping fix porus block, slipped linners, and they make clains that they will do everything inc finding elvis and more, I am highly scepitical about these as a long term fix over a "its running....... now lets flog it" quick route.

Top hat liners are not cheap, but they are a proper solution to this common issue

Happy cursing

Nige :ph34r:

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lilely result is a short number of mikles

WHAT? :huh:

If one or more liners have dropped is it noticeable?

I take it a dropped liner can't be relocated then, is this an engine out job and then I take it specialist engineering work.

Porous block wouldn't cause water into a cylinder would it?

Thanks so far.

Les. :)

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If one or more liners have dropped is it noticeable?

I take it a dropped liner can't be relocated then, is this an engine out job and then I take it specialist engineering work.

Porous block wouldn't cause water into a cylinder would it?

Thanks so far.

Les. :)

The liners are clearly noticeable if you avhe the heads off- if a liner has slipped then you can't miss it. It can create all sorts of prroblems, and of course once it's started to slip it will just keep going! Seen a couple of blocks where can see the wear on the bottom of the liner from the crank hitting it!

Porous block could quite happily allow water into the block- you can get clouds of steam out of the backend with some of them!

Top hat liners are the way to go- if you have any hint of porosity, take the engine out, strip it down and send it someone like Turner engineering. Then you can put new rings and bearings in, rebuild it all and away you go. it's really very easy- even i can do it!

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Well it finally got dropped off by low-loader - 'P' reg 4.6 HSE Auto, and a nice-looking motor at first glance, but it's looking like it's going to be a nightmare. The owner bought this 'as seen' without actually doing any more than looking at the front end as it was crammed in a lock-up.

It's been stood for 'several months' apparently, but it's still taxed and MOT'd.

Externally there's small damage to the tail gate, passenger door mirror glass is smashed, wing repeater is broken , small dent in bonnet lip, pasenger front door won't open from the inside or outside, and the right hand bonnet catch won't let go.

When I was told the engine didn't run, I kind-of assumed that it would still be in one piece, not so - things are looking a bit grim, finishing off someone else's handiwork can be very difficult.

A few pictures anyway.:-

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Not looking good, boxes of bits generally mean that things are going to be missing.

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This rocker cover has the head bolts, push rods, rocker assembly etc, and is 1/3rd full of water.

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One of the cylinder heads taking up space on the drivers floor.

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Finally (for now) although the interior looks as good as new almost, the seat belts are covered in mould.

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That's it so far, but there'll be more!

I take it the bonnet has a catch in both front corners? The left one pops ok, but the right is having none of it. Have any of you any ideas for releasing the bonnet catch when the lever won't do the job?

Also the passeneger door won't open from the inside or out, even with the button up. Any ideas on this please? Can the door card be removed while the door is closed (it doesn't look like it).

The battery is totally flat and has been for some time. Will this cause problems with the electronics?

More pictures to follow when I manage to get the damned bonnet open!

Les. :)

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An interesting job you have there. Has the owner given you a blank cheque? Or perhaps a top limit, then stop?

"Have any of you any ideas for releasing the bonnet catch when the lever won't do the job?"

Each catch is controlled by a separate cable, both terminating at the lever.

Firstly, I'd bounce the bonnet up and down on the sealing rubber, then try the release.

Secondly I do the bouncing a bit more, and have someone press the bonnet down onto the rubber, in the region of the catch, then I'd pull the release while the rubber is compressed.

Thirdly I'd arrange access at the lever (remove it) so I could pull the cable end for the RH catch only, then pull that cable with self-grip wrench, or similar.

If none of those work, ask again.

To avoid putting a dent in the bonnet, ONLY press down on the crease that runs across the bonnet, and use the heels of your hands to spread the load. If you push even gently on the flat metal you will dent and stretch it.

The RH catch has the 'bonnet open' switch incorporated.

When open, you should spend some time unbolting the catch and lubricating it, as the moving parts will be rusty. I use gear oil, being 'sticky' but fluid.

The catch is between the R in Range and the headlight glass.

"Also the passeneger door won't open from the inside or out, even with the button up. Any ideas on this please? Can the door card be removed while the door is closed (it doesn't look like it)".

I've never attempted to remove the door card from a closed door. Looking at the drivers door for guidance, I'd see if it's possible to remove the door seal with the door shut, if you insist on the door card removal approach.

Personally I'd leave this until I had the bonnet open, and can apply electrical power. Then I'd wind the window down and treat it as a broken latch. There is an article I wrote on Rangie.com that gives guidance.

P38 Front Doors won't open. http://www.rangie.com/articles_model.php?id=393&modelId=2

Try Steve Lund for a replacement engine, ask for one that is properly balanced (not LR balanced).

Get a chip from Mark Adams, and that's both of the liner dropping causes eliminated.

Changing big lumps like this will be heavy on part costs, but cheaper on labour, assuming you charge a living wage for your time. Plus the outcome is guaranteed good, both for keeping and if selling.

"The battery is totally flat and has been for some time. Will this cause problems with the electronics?"

No, but you will probably need a new battery. You will also be startled by the chorus of Beeps that will start when you first swtich the ignition on, There will be a series for each door window, and the sunshine roof, all complaining,via the message centre, that they are 'not set'.

Oh, you will also need the code for the radio. If it's the LR original fit then any dealer can supply, free of charge. Get the EKA code while you are about it. There should be no charge for this, but it would be nice to think the enquirer would have to prove ownership. So you may need your new owner to get this information, possibly by walking into the Dealer reception with suitable documents and ID available.

HTH.

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Thanks David, the bonnet catch advice worked a treat, and now it's open. I'll leave the electrical stuff until I get a new battery - the one that's in it is swollen up and is definitely no good. Few more pictures now. Just the left hand head is removed - the right hand still fixed to the block with various bits pushed to one side or bent out of the way. The initial impression is that someone has tried doing a job that was above their head. I always put bolts back in their holes and nuts back on their threads as I go - this prevents mistakes/losses. Nuts and bolts were strewn all along the bottom of the wingdscreen edge or in various other places. I decided to remove the other head and start from scratch, so to speak.

Corrosion inside the bores doesn't seem to be consistent with this vehicle being in a lock-up for months, unless this was coolant water. Looks awful anyway.

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The top of this box is burned, the writing on the side says 'LandI' ' Auto gas equipment' ' injector emulator'

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I cleaned off the valley gasket and disconnected the air flow assembly that was unbolted, but still attached by wiring and cables.

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The rusty cylinder bores weren't as bad as they looked and have cleaned up very well.

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Passenger side head removed and all seems ok in there.

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The mechanical condition of the engine looks fine - the new composite head gaskets show no signs of blowing, the heads were both skimmed and appear in excellent condition. The engine oil is clean and there's no sign of oil in the coolant. I can't see anything wrong and it's possible that someone assumed the head gaskets had failed when they hadn't. I'll get the heads crack tested and put it back together I think.

Les. :)

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"The top of this box is burned, the writing on the side says 'LandI' ' Auto gas equipment' ' injector emulator'"

You appreciate this is telling you an LPG conversion was fitted?

In fact, the manky looking alloy unit to the left of the burnt box could be the vaporiser.

Cheers.

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You appreciate this is telling you an LPG conversion was fitted?

Yes, I know it has a gas conversion David, I did notice the 90-litre gas tank in the boot as well as the vapouriser and control unit.

Is there some significance to a gas conversion on this engine or something?

Sorry, but I can't understand the relevance of your post.

Les. :)

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Les,

I wasn't being 'funny', or even attempting it.

It was just that you had referenced the unit with no other comment, so I wasn't sure whether you understood the significance. Of course, I realised there might be a tank to go with it, but with that vehicle, perhaps not (it possibly having been removed at some time). Again, there was always the possibility that you were so taken with the engine that you hadn't looked in the 'boot'.

Neither can it be ignored, especially with a vehicle as 'unloved' as that clearly was, that a cheap and nasty LPG installation just might be the root cause of the reported engine maladies.

So. I thought it worth stating the obvious, rather than make a series of assumptions, none of them valid.

"Is there some significance to a gas conversion on this engine or something?"

Well, Yes, from what I've read.

The 4.0 and 4.6 is picky, when LPG'd, about top quality HT items. Changing them before a fault is preventative maintenance in the literal sense, as when they fail the engine doesn't just 'miss' slightly, it backfires and blows the airbox apart. For this reason a sequential injection system, into each manifold runner, is considered the only worthwhile installation.

Feeding the complete engine through a single common venturi, thus creating an inlet manifold full of lpg / air is just setting the scene for a monstrous back-fire.

I can't tell, from the clues you have given, if the installation is sequential or not.

My recommendation, not that you've asked, is to get it running OK on petrol.

If the LPG is non-sequential either disable it or get agreement to change it.

I don't think you should put your name, however vaguely, to a non-sequential system, so don't let the car leave your care with one in operation.

Hope this clarifies the issue.

Cheers.

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Landi on the injector emulator and vapouriser is Landi Renzo - same make of LPG kit as I've got on my classic, though it's definitely not the same model - both units look different to mine. A quick look at Landi Renzos web site suggests that only their venturi (non injected) kits use separate injector emulator units, so I'm afraid it looks like you've got a venturi kit.

Do you have the inlet manifold, Les? Is it modified for a second set of (LPG) injectors?

Can't quite make out from your photo's whether the wiring for the injector emulator is still in place - there should be a loom running along each bank of injectors - it plugs into each injector then an adjacent plug takes the original injector plug on the OEM loom.

David, are venturi kits much more problematic on the higher capacity RV8s than the 3.5s and 3.9s then? Mine's generally been okay on a 3.9, although it's definitely fussy about having a decent spark, and has flashed back and blown the intake pipe apart :( If I was fitting a new kit I'd definitely go for injected, though.

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I wasn't being 'funny', or even attempting it.

I didn't think for a minute that you were David, I thought perhaps you were making a statement and I was missing the point.

Anyway - inlet manifold has just the 8 injectors and is standard as far as I can see. The gas is injected

Via a venturi, which is damaged - it looks like someone has used a screwdriver to apply leverage to it and the alloy is quite damaged. The ring of holes are still ok though.

3 more pictures:-

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Found out yesterday why the engine was partially stripped a second time - it was overheating.

Everything seems mechanically sound to me, so it doesn't appear to be head/valley gasket associated.

David - I agree re get it running on petrol and then worry about gas, this was my original plan and then take the vehicle to 'Gas and Go' here in Swindon to get it fixed/re-installed or whatever.

Les. :)

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"David, are venturi kits much more problematic on the higher capacity RV8s than the 3.5s and 3.9s then?"

That is what I've read.

You must remember I'm inclined towards the 38A, so don't pay much attention to anything about the 3.9, or the 3.5.

Also, I'm more interested in the Diesel than in the Petrol.

I used to spend some time talking to Hugo at Iwema, and in the absence of any other direction, that is where I'd go if I had an LPG / Petrol query. A query such as why venturi kits seem OK on the 3.5 (if they are, IF!), but not on the 4.0 / 4.6. An alternative trusted source would be Gordon Finlay. I know he uses Iwema stuff, but he also is independant enough to look elsewhere if that suits the application.

"Mine's generally been okay on a 3.9, ... has flashed back and blown the intake pipe apart ... "

'Generally OK', a touch of rose tinted glasses perhaps?

" ... it's definitely fussy about having a decent spark ..." supports my own comments, Thankyou :-)

HTH.

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"Mine's generally been okay on a 3.9, ... has flashed back and blown the intake pipe apart ... "

'Generally OK', a touch of rose tinted glasses perhaps?

No, it is generally okay - but there are two things you musn't do if you value your intake:

  • Start on LPG (well, they do tell you not to... :rolleyes: )
  • Connect your plugs up in the wrong order...yes, I did, and that's what blew the intake pipe apart :huh:

It's far from ideal, but when it's looked after it is okay - certainly not bad enough to justify the cost of converting to injection if you already have a venturi kit. Of course, that's the story as far as the smaller V8s go - I'm not going to venture an opinion on the bigger ones as I've no experience to base it on (and I'm certainly not going to dispute with your far more knowledgable sources). Like I said though, if I was starting from scratch, I'd go injected every time.

" ... it's definitely fussy about having a decent spark ..." supports my own comments, Thankyou :-)

I wasn't disputing your comments at all :) LPG is inherantly more demanding on the ignition (very simple cause - it's harder to ignite), it's just that RV8s are prone to poor ignition anyway, and it'll be far worse on LPG than it is on petrol.

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I would agree with both David & Geoff's comments. It looks like a cheap LPG conversion, nothing wrong with Landi Renzo but it's not the kit best suited to the P38A. Models with the GEMS ignition system do not take kindly to not tend to run well with the "venturi" type systems due to the fancy tricks that the GEMS does with the igniton control.

That it is a very basic system is bourne out by the type of vapouriser / regulator fitted and that the mixer (venturi) is a pretty small size, any LPG installer with experience of the V8 will tell you that you need a 42mm mixer as opposed to the 36mm usually supplied in standard kits. Also the stepper motor has been fitted as close as possible to the mixer, again, anyone with experience will tell you that conventional logic does not apply here and the stepper motor is best fitted as close to the vapouriser / regulator as possible. This all leads me to suspect the kit has been installed either as a DIY kit or by somone less experienced.

I would recommend that the front end of the LPG installation be changed for an SGI system, especially while you have the manifold off, drilling for injectors, and as David says Gordon Findlay has broad experience and an independant mind.

You can't always tell if the liners have moved as it generally only occurs with the engine hot. I had a rebuilt 3.9 from RPI that failed with slipped liners, to be fair they did me a deal on a replacement and admited that it is possible to test but they don't generally do it as it's not economical.

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You can't always tell if the liners have moved as it generally only occurs with the engine hot

You must be able to see some sign of the liner moving, otherwise everyone that has even remotely vague syptoms that may be associated with cylinder head/gasket problems, would perhaps think that the engine needs a re-build. I spent a considerable length of time examining the bore/block area on all 8 cylinders and can see nothing that would indicate a liner moving.

Anyway. I spent today reassembling the engine, it started easy and as I got into the areas that I hadn't worked on myself, things slowed down. As expected, but dreaded, I had to fit, then remove again items that I had inadvertantly fitted out of sequence. The littering of bolts that were originally along the bottom of the widscreen, became a problem, as an M6 x 15mm can be easily put in place of where an M6 x 20mm should be. Eventually it becomes evident that something ain't right - hence the need to take something off that I just fitted :angry:

A few more pictures anyway and another question for you suited mechanics! :D

One head bolt on the drivers side had been rounded-off whilst being undone, so a trek to T.H.White was called for to replace it.

Both heads fitted and torqued down, straight forward and fairly easy.

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This is the rocker cover and contents that was originally in the passenger footwell. What an unnecessary mess. Cleaning this sort of thing takes time.

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The PAS pump, air con compressor, and associated brackets etc bolted back in place.

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Still loks a mess, but isn't (if you know what I mean)

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That's it so far - both heads on, rocker assemblies, pushrods, valley gasket, air con and PAS pump, both ex manifolds ( the guy that designed the fitting of the drivers side one needs a kick where it hurts). Everthing now is putting right what was in bits when it was delivered here.

One last picture and another question - there are two earth wires in this picture, one comes from the alternator/ belt tensioner bracket, and the other appears from behind the battery tray. I can't tell where they connect, do any of you know please?

med_gallery_2_57_645486.jpg

Les. :)

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Just a reminder, I'm not a V8 sort of person, but no-one else has offered any information.

"there are two earth wires in this picture, one comes from the alternator/ belt tensioner bracket, and the other appears from behind the battery tray. I can't tell where they connect, do any of you know please?"

Reading the section on removing the engine, it refers to disconnecting earth wires in two places.

One is the alternator bracket, the other is the valance. For the latter the picture indicates 'the valance' as being the bodywork under the front end of the fuse box, or between there and the battery box.

Both these locations appear to be where your cables are already terminated, so not much help there.

All I can suggest is that they are similar to the Diesel installation.

On the front face of the RH shock absorber tower there is a bolt holding two earth leads. This could be your common securing point.

EDIT:

"Looking again at your picture, the leads may not reach towards the top of the shock absorber tower, but I'd take the hint and look for somewhere there was an Earth connection to the chassis. Earthing the chassis seems like a good idea, so basic it's not thought about."

On the diesel, the path is battery negative, bodywork valance behind battery box (Mid run Crimp connector), shock absorber tower (cable ends) 2nd cable to lower engine block.

Sorry for the slow response, I thought there were plenty of V8 people around to pick this up.

D

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Just to add my twopenneth (tell me to go away if you like).

I tend to get a few overheating cars after they've had head gaskets replaced.

This is usually caused by failure of the viscous fan, blocked radiator or worn/corroded water pump impellor.

Or even a loss of water through a minute leak which has gone undetected. Sometimes the headgasket is a symptom, NOT the cure.

Garages tend to do what's presented to them. Head gasket failed, they replace it/them.

Short roadtest, all hunky dory, £xxx Thank you very much have a nice day.

Next time the engine goes on a longer journey or at constant speed the temperature rises and either the driver notices this time, or the engine throws a wobbly and blows a gasket again.

It is then assumed there must be a crack somewhere and the engine is deemed irrepairable, so replace engine.

Extend roadtest, car overheats, realise another component is faulty, replace said component, DO NOT tell customer = loadsa profit!! :huh:

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Well it's 99% re-assembled now. Just a few things left to do. As I got towards the end, things got harder and bolts got scarcer :angry: The coil pack bracket was badly bent - I assume so that whoever took it off could remove it seperately from the inlet manifold - so getting the bolt holes to line-up was very frustrating.

Both rocker covers were in such an awful state that it took me nearly 3-hours to clean them. The drivers side one has a strange little restricted breather that was clogged-up with mud. I think I'll also have to drain the fuel tank, it's been stood for so long the fuel may well have gone rancid.

You were right David - the earth wires do connect together on a bolt on the suspesion top - there's a large part of the wiring loom that obscures the bolt.

There's also a couple of bits missing - the drivers side exhaust manifold has a heat shield around it (in two halves?) The inner is there, but the outer half isn't. The viscous fan housing - the thin top cover is missing too.

I wanted to isolate the LPG system as much as possible without making any mechanical changes that couldn't easily be put right. There are two wiring looms that plug into the injectors, and these are tied out of the way for now. The only things I have left to do is re-connect the plug leads, and figure-out how to connect the cooling system (with or without the vapouriser pipes).

I fitted the new battery and as soon as I did there was a series of noises - indicators flashed as well.

The first time I put the key in the ignition I got warnings about the windows, sun roof, etc. If I turned the key as if to start the engine I got an error message, asking for a code or 'press the immobiliser'. This has now gone, and if I turn the key the engine spins on the starter.

I get the windows, sunroof, warning repeatedly, and I can't figure out how to stop it. Turning the ignition on sets off what seems to be a test procedure, and apart from the door solenoids clicking while the display goes through a list, there's an electric motor starts running, which gradually sound as if it's winding down until it abruptly stops. This happens every time I turn the ignition on.

As soon as I open a door, the display says :- 'Ignition key in' (even thought it's not), underneath is -

'127279.0

0.0'

If I put the key in and switch the ignition on, the same code numbers appear, but with the letter 'p' =

P.127279.0.

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I hope that the engine would start now if I finished off the ignition connections and the water works. Would the computer sort everything out if the engine was running?

Les.

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"I get the windows, sunroof, warning repeatedly, and I can't figure out how to stop it. "

With the ignition on, wind a window all the way open, wait a second with the motor stalled, then release the button. Now wind the window all the way up, wait a second with the motor stalled, then release the button.

It's important you go from full closed to full open without stopping, and that the ECU sees the stalled motor, but there is no benefit in overdoing it.

If the door bangs when the window reaches fully closed the regulator has worn out. As DIY you can be inventive cutting and welding to replace the worn teeth. As a paid for job change the regulator, after you've told the Customer the price.

Set all the windows individually with the down / up trick.

The sunroof is similar, full open to full close, but I can never remember if its up / down, then back / forwards, or back forwards then up / down.

Again, don't take your finger off the switch until the device being 'set' has definately stopped moving. Don't anticipate and release the switch early.

You should be seeing messages, and hearing beeps, about all these items being 'not set'. As there are five items to run through it seems to take about 30 seconds, and really winds you up the first time. After setting each item, you will get a display of RH front window set, etc.

This 'set' process has to be gone thorough every time you disconnect / reconnect the battery.

You will also need the radio security code, but I think I mentioned that before

" there's an electric motor starts running, which gradually sound as if it's winding down until it abruptly stops. "

This is probably the ABS pump, supplying pressure to the brake system. It's standard. HOWEVER, if you aren't pumping the brakes the run time should be much shorter the next time the ignition is on. The repeated long runs suggests the pressure accumulator is shot, this will force excessive operation of the pump. As this is an expensive item, start being prepared to change the accumulator. It's the 'obvious' pressurised unit between the fluid resevoir and the fuse box. You should feel it vibrating while the pump is running.

The only other pump that runs is the EAS compresser, but it's the ABS that is usually more noticable.

"As soon as I open a door, the display says :- 'Ignition key in' (even thought it's not),"

This is failure of the microswitch which senses if the key is in the ignition. A sticking switch is not umcommon. The metal surrounding the ignition key slot, it should move in and out as you use insert / remove the key. Try 'working' it in and out with the tip of the key. Having stood it may be seized good and proper. The switch is available as a seperate componant, but it's a minor problem and can be ignored.

"As soon as I open a door, the display says ....

'127279.0

0.0'

If I put the key in and switch the ignition on, the same code numbers appear, but with the letter 'p' =

P.127279.0."

This is code for you have been working too hard. Relax and have a cup of tea.

127279.0 is the recorded mileage (or kilometerage)

0.0 is the trip distance.

P means the gearlever is in Park.

"Would the computer sort everything out if the engine was running?"

The human hand does most of it :-)

"I hope that the engine would start now if I finished off the ignition connections and the water works."

I think you are almost there.

Cheers.

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More problems unfortunately.

The plug leads have been disconnected without any kind of mark or reference to their position, there are also 2xNo7 leads. The manual just says to make a note of plug lead position and not the pattern they go in. Can anyone tell me the relevant leads and thier position on the coils please?

Thanks once more.

Les. :)

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