micromoose Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 I'm looking into replacing the 300tdi in my 1998 110 SW with the 3.9 V9 from a Disco. The reasoning is that disco's can be picked up pretty cheaply and will give me all of the ancillaries I'm going to need. The intention is to retain the R380, so the question is what bellhousing will I need and I'm assuming I'll need a new input shaft. The transfer box should be a straight swap if I want to lower the gearing but is there any benefit to using the disco diffs? Are they a lower ratio than I have in the Def? The alternative was the BMW M20 3.4 straight six as it gives higher power and torque figures and is a very reliable and more efficient engine. It would be a more involved swap though so I'm leaning more towards the V8. Has anyone done an M20 transplant who can tell me what's involved or point me in the right direction? Many thanks. Quote
BogMonster Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 The diffs will be the same ratio 3.54:1 Years back, Land Rover produced a BMW 2.8 straight six petrol engined version (M52?) of the Def 90 for the South African market and a handful found their way to the UK so it might be worth trying to track one of those down for a look, I should think it would give you some idea of the problems involved. Quote
flatback90 Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 nene overland had one of the bmw ones for sale a while back dunno if they will let you have a poke around it. Quote
RangeyRover Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 Remembered reading a quote from a thread ages ago, http://www.d-90.com/forum/printthread.php?t=10478 Thats says using a bellhousing from a manual p38 would mount the gearbox to a bmw straight six.... I presume from the manual diesel. It also says ashcrofts were involved so a call to david may be in order Quote
FridgeFreezer Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 Taking a guess at your knowledge level from the contents of your post, I think you need to do a bit more research. Although R380's were used behind several LR engines and in front of LT230's, they are not all the same. Disco & RR ones have longer bellhousings (~30cm long) & input shafts to match, and the tailhousing and gearshift are different. All in, it's a right game to "convert" one to Defender spec. Your best option is either to just get a box built to spec by Ashcrofts or similar, or use a V8 adapter plate. For the comparison of LT230 ratios, have a look here and also have a read of the tech archive, there are some useful gearing calculations in there. Swapping the BMW unit in will require a load of rather rare parts (there are probably at least 1000x more V8 Land Rovers out there compared to BMW) so you're rather unlikely to find second hand bits cheap on ebay or kicking round the local scrapyard. Quote
landkeeper Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 Taking a guess at your knowledge level from the contents of your post, I think you need to do a bit more research.Although R380's were used behind several LR engines and in front of LT230's, they are not all the same. Disco & RR ones have longer bellhousings (~30cm long) & input shafts to match, and the tailhousing and gearshift are different. All in, it's a right game to "convert" one to Defender spec. Your best option is either to just get a box built to spec by Ashcrofts or similar, or use a V8 adapter plate. For the comparison of LT230 ratios, have a look here and also have a read of the tech archive, there are some useful gearing calculations in there. Swapping the BMW unit in will require a load of rather rare parts (there are probably at least 1000x more V8 Land Rovers out there compared to BMW) so you're rather unlikely to find second hand bits cheap on ebay or kicking round the local scrapyard. just an observation on the gearbox issue : have both a r380 from a v8 defender here and one from a v8 disco and the shafts are the same lenth and diameter and the bellhousings are the same both have the same part number Quote
custom-conversions Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 just an observation on the gearbox issue : have both a r380 from a v8 defender here and one from a v8 disco and the shafts are the same lenth and diameter and the bellhousings are the same both have the same part number Have you thought about using an auto box with the BMW engine? If its the M30 six cylinder lump which I think you are talking about they use the ZF4Hp22 which is almost the same as fitted to the Range Rovers. The M30 (Big Six) was fitted to 530/535is 730/735i & possibly others. They are great engines with lots of potential for more power relatively cheaply. They are a little heavy & they are quite a long engine but it should be possible to get one to fit. I think the sump may cause issues with diff clearance, as I think the oil pump is chain driven off the crank at the front of the engine, the main sumps at the front aswell. Just something to look into. Quote
FridgeFreezer Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 just an observation on the gearbox issue : have both a r380 from a v8 defender here and one from a v8 disco and the shafts are the same lenth and diameter and the bellhousings are the same both have the same part number I didn't think they made V8 defenders late enough to use the R380 Quote
ashtrans Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 just an observation on the gearbox issue : have both a r380 from a v8 defender here and one from a v8 disco and the shafts are the same lenth and diameter and the bellhousings are the same both have the same part number the front ends are the same but the remote shifters are obviously different for the disco and defender, the BMW petrol defenders had the same R 380 and bellhousing as the 300 TDi but the engine had an adapter on the rear to get to the TDi bolt pattern, the auto sounds good, just use a range rover box (so you have the 4 wheel drive rear) and the BMW torque converter and bellhousing, Quote
B reg 90 Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 If you are lucky the BMW petrol might have the same block pattern as the BMW M57 2.5 6 clyinder diesel fitted to the P38's. The R380 in the P38's will bolt straight up to the 2.5 and 3.0 ltr M57 diesel engines. Are the electric's on the BMW petrol fixable?? I know that Jeremy Fearn and Rally Raid UK are into fixing the electonic's on the M57 diesel. There may be som commonality on the security unit, etc??? Adrian Quote
GBMUD Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 I didn't think they made V8 defenders late enough to use the R380 And I thought panto season was over... "Oh yes they did". Enter NAS90 stage left... Chris Quote
woodytz Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 I put an LPG conversion on one of the South Afrikkan 110,s Aa few years ago, it was a nice bit of kit, really well converted. Quote
BogMonster Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 I didn't think they made V8 defenders late enough to use the R380 Yes they did, though rocking horse poo is more common. The 3.5 carb V8s were built to special order only (along with the 2.5 petrol, IIRC) for export markets until quite well on. There is (or was) just one here before some heathen pulled it out and put a 200Tdi in it (sorry Ralph ). From memory I think it was probably a 98 or 99 model year vehicle but I think they actually carried on making them later than that, I remember the plug being pulled at some point but as it was of no significance I can't remember when, it might even have been as late as 2001. I think the NAS vehicles were built as 1995 model and either 96 or 97 model so I guess they would have had an R380 as well, as Chris suggests. The police here had this one, and then they didn't.... Avon Rangemasters/ice/hill/bad connection twixt seat and wheel Quote
FridgeFreezer Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 Are the electric's on the BMW petrol fixable?? If it's got petrol and sparks, it can be MegaSquirted. Quote
thirstybeast Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 [ There is (or was) just one here before some heathen pulled it out and put a 200Tdi in it (sorry Ralph ). From memory I think it was probably a 98 or 99 model year vehicle . Yes mine is the 99 Police vehicle in Bogmonsters picture! I have just had the bad experience of the not quite long enough V8 input shaft ripping the splines out of the TDI clutch plate many miles from a road and with a full load of passengers who had a boat to catch!! The solution for now is an A&P clitch disc with slightly longer splines than the valeo type. I guess the point is you realy need all the correct bits so dont start the job if you arnt sure. I will be changing the box to a TDI R380 this winter for a long term fix. Quote
micromoose Posted January 9, 2009 Author Posted January 9, 2009 Taking a guess at your knowledge level from the contents of your post, I think you need to do a bit more research.Although R380's were used behind several LR engines and in front of LT230's, they are not all the same. Disco & RR ones have longer bellhousings (~30cm long) & input shafts to match, and the tailhousing and gearshift are different. All in, it's a right game to "convert" one to Defender spec. Your best option is either to just get a box built to spec by Ashcrofts or similar, or use a V8 adapter plate. For the comparison of LT230 ratios, have a look here and also have a read of the tech archive, there are some useful gearing calculations in there. Swapping the BMW unit in will require a load of rather rare parts (there are probably at least 1000x more V8 Land Rovers out there compared to BMW) so you're rather unlikely to find second hand bits cheap on ebay or kicking round the local scrapyard. Thanks for the replies so for, you're right about my knowledge level which is why I'm asking advice on the forum. The M20 appeals as it was done by LR themselves on the M50 engineed SA spec defender but as you say, I'm thinking despite it's advanages it will be a much more difficult project and do the benefits over the V8 warrant it? I was thinking of giving Ashcrofts a call but never having dealt with them and being new to LR ownership I wasn't sure how open they are to a chat of that nature. I'll give them a bell. Thanks. Quote
micromoose Posted January 9, 2009 Author Posted January 9, 2009 Have you thought about using an auto box with the BMW engine? If its the M30 six cylinder lump which I think you are talking about they use the ZF4Hp22 which is almost the same as fitted to the Range Rovers. The M30 (Big Six) was fitted to 530/535is 730/735i & possibly others. They are great engines with lots of potential for more power relatively cheaply. They are a little heavy & they are quite a long engine but it should be possible to get one to fit. I think the sump may cause issues with diff clearance, as I think the oil pump is chain driven off the crank at the front of the engine, the main sumps at the front aswell. Just something to look into. Good info on the sump. Thanks. Yes considered the auto but really wanted to stick with the manual box. Quote
micromoose Posted January 9, 2009 Author Posted January 9, 2009 If you are lucky the BMW petrol might have the same block pattern as the BMW M57 2.5 6 clyinder diesel fitted to the P38's. The R380 in the P38's will bolt straight up to the 2.5 and 3.0 ltr M57 diesel engines.Are the electric's on the BMW petrol fixable?? I know that Jeremy Fearn and Rally Raid UK are into fixing the electonic's on the M57 diesel. There may be som commonality on the security unit, etc??? Adrian Part of the draw for going back to the M20 rather than anything later is so that the electronics are relatively simple. The engine is "stand alone" so the ecu doesn't reply on inputs from other on board systems to confuse matters. Quote
micromoose Posted January 9, 2009 Author Posted January 9, 2009 Remembered reading a quote from a thread ages ago,http://www.d-90.com/forum/printthread.php?t=10478 Thats says using a bellhousing from a manual p38 would mount the gearbox to a bmw straight six.... I presume from the manual diesel. It also says ashcrofts were involved so a call to david may be in order Thanks for the info. Quote
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