ashtrans Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 Hi Guys, we have been working on this flat out and have learnt loads, we have incorporated some neat design features, in Europe after a wet weekend competing it's usual to have to strip the hubs to get the water out and regrease etc. we have double drilled the drive flanges so you have 10 bolts but 2 of them, opposite eachother, are drilled with a gallery through the hub to the gap between the wheel bearings, the idea being you remove both screws, blast grease down one with a pneumatic grease gun until it comes out clean from the other hole, put the bolts back in, job done. front and rear hubs are designed so you can fit twin brake calipers, the diff housings are on the 3rd prototype and are very near the final build, ARB's are modified and ready to fit, shafts and CV's are ready. we are aiming to have a pair of axles on display at the Billing show in the UK in July then will fit then on a vehicle to go to the Portugese Rainforest Challenge for their first test. few update photos, it's slow process but it's definatly getting there, we are now on the 4th prototype knuckle and it looks nice, these newer knuckle inners are solid steel, the outers are solid flange and twin caliper flanges with fabricated sides, seal and needle roller bearings on CV we make 4 mods to the 9" ARB RD99, 1) to fit to our new housing we have to machine the ARB on the non crown wheel side to pull the journal bearing in closer to the centre, the other 3 mods are to improve the poor dog clutch engagement, 2) there are 12 small but strong disengagement springs, this is a huge force for the pneumatic piston to overcome on engagement, we remove 4. 3) the dog clutch only has 2.5mm engagement, we machine it to add 1mm more. 4) the internal air feed holes are 1mm, we open these up to 1.5mm. not tested any of the above yet but hopefully it will improve the problems the 9" ARB suffers from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Dave, how are you doing with the pinion oiling? Have you seen the 'geroters' that people use in the US on their high pinion 9s? Thats the way forward. Good luck, Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Hi All,We have for some time been working on a new super HD axle. The diff is being made to fit the rover axle casing so you bolt on the diff, new shafts, open knuckles, CV's, stub axles, modified hubs and drive flanges. We still have some work to do but I thought I would post a few pics of the diff unit. the diff spec is : Ford 9" hypoid ring and pinion High Pinion 4.11 ratio ARB 35 spline Nodular Iron housing (this prototype is ali) Dave I might have missed something, or simply become dyslexic, but is this diff specifically designed for front application only ? If used in the rear will the ring and pinion be driving on the coast side of the teeth? If so does the higher thrust loads due to higher pressure angle of the teeth on the coast side give you any cause for concern? Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtrans Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 thanks for the link Al, Hi Bill, no, it's for the rear as well but the rear is very simple in comparison, ie : same rover/9" ARB diff as front new shafts new stub axles spacers / caliper flanges modified hubs new drive flanges we have made a front and rear prototype, the rear diff may make a good upgrade in 24 spline format to replace the late 110 P38 diff, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Thanks for the reply Dave. I'm sorry, I was editing my post with another question while you were replying. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtrans Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 Hi Bill, 'If used in the rear will the ring and pinion be driving on the coast side of the teeth? If so does the higher thrust loads due to higher pressure angle of the teeth on the coast side give you any cause for concern?' yes the rear will be on the coast side, we will be adding a thrust pad to assist but I don't think it will be a problem as in the US this setup is used with 50" tyres and 500 HP. if it is a problem we can either look at getting a new rear R & P made to be high pin and drive on the drive side or just run a low pinion so it drives on the drive side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Dave, looking very good!!! As I said a couple of months ago I really like the feature with the hub greasing - a very sensible move IMHO. Are you also incorporating the idea you were talking about with the stub axle seals??? I'm interested in the mods you're doing with the engagement dogs on the RD99. I wonder how much it will improve the problem. Do you think you'll need an uprated dog like some in the States are now selling? I'm not convinced that an uprated dog alone will improve this as, making the dog harder, will only result in the wear being on the gear rather than the locking ring. It was interesting that the locker Dan brought over with me suffered from the same problem which suggests it is a common design issue with ARB lockers..... I guess the ultimate solution is be more careful with locker engagement but that really an option in the heat of a competition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Dave,I just read your thread and the responses to it on Pirate . I assume that the production knuckles will be cast instead of fabricated.With all the options available to the Americans, I'd guess the majority of your market will probably be from damp muddy Europe. I wonder at the wisdom of adopting the open knuckle design, particularly with expensive CV joints. I'm just imagining that knuckle assembly submerged in and full of abrasive mud/gravel mixture grinding away at the inner and outer halfshaft seals, CV joint wiper etc, leading to premature failure of components. Your prototype mock up appears to run swivel bearings instead of ball joints. These would also need seals to keep them alive. I've had enough to do with D44 open knuckle front ends, re seized universal joints, water and mud contaminated hub bearings, axle tubes packed full of mud and stones that grind nice little stress riser grooves on the inner halfshafts leading to breakages that make shaft retreival extremely difficult. and that was on vehicles that see mud only occasionally. Some years ago I cut the swivel balls off a Landrover 101 front end and welded flanges on to them so that they could be bolted onto Series type front housings. Surely in these days of CNC machinary something along these lines wouldn't involve a great deal more machining than what is required of the open knuckle design, and would be much less of a maintenance liability, You may lose the ability to fit twin brake calipers, but how important is that in reality? Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 I was thinking about the CV joints too. Going to be far different conditions than the US crawling scene. could a gaiter be used to keep the crud out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtrans Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 The debate closed swivel vs open knuckle can go on for ever it becomes each having advantages and dis-advantages. For us to use the closed swivel with the large CV would involve a very large dia outer swivel which would not fit the 'stock' disc brakes or hub. Larger hub would mean that the disc caliper would not fit into the wheel well so new wheels etc. in effect a 101. Our design is based on our heavy duty D2 arrangement which appart from problems with the rubber boot has caused us no concerns. In this design the boot issue has been resolved by using the 'urathane' heavy duty boot. The design allows for the re-filling of the CV with grease by simply removing the drive member cap nut, the stub shaft is gun drilled to allow external fill. The hub has been drilled to accept 10 bolts two of which , at 180deg, are drilled into the cavity between the between the hub bearings which are considerably larger than original. Because we use a CV as opposed to the UJ the inner half shaft, like the D2, does not wander about when turning from lock to lock. This allows seals and dirt shields to be fitted at the outer end of the axle tube, also this seal at the end of the axle tube runs on the dirt shield allowing simple replacement if damage does occur without damage to the shaft. As you know correct positioning of the CV in relation to the king pin axis is critical to keep the half shaft from wandering from its axis allowing proper filling of the axle tube with oil, a UJ arrangement causes the half shaft to wander so attempts are made to fit the seal at the inner end ajacent to the diff, not easy and not very sucessful. If you look at the inner swivels you will see a 4.5mm hole half way down, this is to check half shaft run out. We measured it at 0.008" TIR which should be fine. The swivel bearings are sealed and fitted with grease points, also the top and bottom will be sealed with the steering fittings, the space between the inner and outer knuckle will have a large section dia (6mm) 'O' ring to supplement the seal fitted to the swivel bearing. We appreciate your comment and take them very seriously so please keep them coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Only one or three more points to make at this stage Dave. You stated that a larger swivel would require a larger hub etc etc. That is not strictly true. You are no doubt aware of the McNamara 1 1/2'' 35 spline halfshaft and stub axle kit for Salisbury rear diffs that uses larger wheel bearings in bored out 110/ defender hubs. Actually doesn't your new system here use bored out LandRover hub? I believe someone in the LandRover 101 club has developed a disc brake conversion which they somehow have managed to squeeze in around the larger outer swivel housing and hub whilst retaining 101 wheels. Unlike yourself they don't have the luxury of incorporating caliper mounting points into a new casting. I'd suppose that anyone who would spend the kind of money necessary to aquire your new product would become a stickler for maintenance and grease all the points of the hub/ knuckle assembly after trips or events involving wading in deep mud holes, so my initial reservations regarding open knuckles may not be too valid in this case. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbadger Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Very impressive engineering Dave. I've been following quietly. The only question I have is why not offer a custom housing as well as the centre section and knuckles/hubs. From the look of the cut out for the crown wheel a custom diff pan will be required anyway, so a simple bolt on unpgrade is already out of the question. A new fabricated housing would solve any issue with bending the LR one, remove the need for diff gaurds and could incorperate better seals etc. Could you not go down a similar route as Spidertrax / Diamond and offer a modular system where you can add the centre section and/or knuckles to an existing LR housing, or start out with a new stronger fabricated housing as the basis? I think you'd still have a good market if the new housing was offered as a bolt-on with standard LR bracketry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtrans Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 Hi Bill, it sounds like the rear is very similar to the Macnamara set uo, we bore the hubs, fit new bigger bearings and put them on new stubs with a bigger ID to fit the new 35 spline shafts. I suspect (hope) these will be going on competition cars which will be serviced / inspected after every event. Hi Plasticbadger, our aim is to offer a cost effective, bolt on alternative to the (very good) spidertrax axles with the same huge strength rather than just copy them, you can buy a bolt on spidertrax axle now with the LR brackets, these are available today, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Hi Bill,'If used in the rear will the ring and pinion be driving on the coast side of the teeth? If so does the higher thrust loads due to higher pressure angle of the teeth on the coast side give you any cause for concern?' yes the rear will be on the coast side, we will be adding a thrust pad to assist but I don't think it will be a problem as in the US this setup is used with 50" tyres and 500 HP. if it is a problem we can either look at getting a new rear R & P made to be high pin and drive on the drive side or just run a low pinion so it drives on the drive side. Dave, I hope you don't think I'm being picky or critical just for the sake of it. Like yourself, differentials and transmissions have been a bit of a pet subject for me for many years, both professionally and as an enthusiast. I've seen and repaired them all from Citroen 2cV's to 150 ton heavy haulers and know that there is nothing that can't be broken. I'd like your product to be successful right off the bat and if you have already previously considered the points I have raised please feel free to ignore them. If you haven't I'll send you my bank account details by PM I've just remembered a time when a mate of mine with 9'' Ford diffs with LandRover ends front and rear in a LWB, powered by a chrysler 265 hemi of approx 200bhp on 31'' 7.50x16 tyres was attempting to climb an 18'' high earth bank on the side of my driveway, when the rear wheels spun. He backed off the throttle a couple of times and gave it another couple of squirts in an effort to get the tyres to bite. There was an almighty bang before the back of the propshaft fell to the ground together with the pinion and pinion bearing carrier assembly.The inside of the banjo housing was full of broken crownwheel teeth that had the appearance of being heavily loaded on the coast side.Surprisingly the Detroit No Spin carrier only had .001'' run out after all this trauma. Now admittedly the diff housing was a standard Ford grey iron one, unlike the considerably stronger nodular or even alloy ones ,but it just occurred to me that pegging the diff to reduce crownwheel carrier flex, particularly when shock loaded on the coast side would probably just cause this type of failure unless a substantial amount of extra material was built into the diff housing in the area around the pinion carrier bolt holes. Bill. Edit. Instead of having special alternative ratio Hi pinion crownwheels and pinions made, if that is what people want. how about mounting regular low pinion ones upside down and incorporate a 2 gear drop box on the pinion housing with alternative gearsets, similar to the so called quick change rear ends used in some racing applications? That way you could also ''clock'' the drop box to get the optimum propshaft angle for the rear and sump clearance up front Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtrans Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Hi Bill We have beefed up the diff housing where the two thrust bolts are located and will be adding the thrust pad on the rear diff, we don't think it necessary on the front, but only time and abuse will tell if we got it right. There are huge forces at play and I sometimes wonder that the diffs survive at all. If we can get a high pinion manufactured with the drive/coast side reversed that would be the ultimate answer. In the meantime if the rear diff presents a problem we will look at low pinion, ie conventional R & P. driving on the 'drive side'. I had not thought about your suggestion using a 'quick change' gear set on the pinion to reverse the rotation but did consider briefly a two gear 'portal' at present we still have lots to do to complete our first axle sets ready for the 'Billing Show'. Thanks for your comments, with all the accumulated knowledge and good will on the various forums nudging us along we are getting there. Regards Ian Ashcroft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtrans Posted July 24, 2009 Author Share Posted July 24, 2009 video of the first test run here : video we were very pleased, the ticking is the CV boot clip fouling, now fixed, the diff was silent and the oil feed to the pinion bearings worked well, should be on a car for real testing very soon, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Lovely stuff Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Very nice! Is that a Siemens motor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Glad to see your thoughts confirmed... Plenty of oil delivered to the nose of the diff... Looks great to see the axle actually spinning and very quiet too !!! Great work guys... I see you won again Ian... David didn't get to cut the casing down for the test ! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Very, very nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landkeeper Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 looks great, any idea what a pair will cost one thing though stick a pto guard over that prop if your gonna have fellas leaning over it might just save someones arm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Great Dave, Well done!! But as above, a prop restraint would be a good idea, as you are testing something new, just in case you have a diff seizure etc and the prop lets go! could be more than exciting for the person stood next to it! Great to see this project evolve! Good seller I hope! Lara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Same for the spinny ends of the axle when one guy is looking closely at the CV joint and the other is steering the axle. Could have someone's eye out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Dave, Now that we see you nearing completion, how are the forecasted prices looking? Lara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtrans Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 Dave,Now that we see you nearing completion, how are the forecasted prices looking? Lara it will depend a bit on the production spec and initial batch quantity but I am guessing at about £ 7 K for a set of parts to fit to your axle tubes, ie : 2 x hi pin 4.11 diff with ARB 4 x halfshafts 2 x CV's 4 x drive flanges 2 x inner and outer knuckles 2 x rear spacers/caliper mounts 4 x stub axles 2 x modified front hubs 1 x all bearings and seals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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