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Offroading and fighting a losing battle


sparg

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John Rawls book has been shown time and time again to have fundamental flaws to his arguments.

His other book 'the end of history and the last man' was/is scarily accurate though.

Ee-by-gum..... takes me a back a few years! Not read any of that stuff since i finished my degree!

I thought 'the end of history' was Fukuyama, a thesis that Fukuyama himself conceded was incomplete, on the basis there can be no 'end of history' until the actual end of history or in our case the modern sense of history as defined by natural scientists like Darwin.

Our own liberal democracy may yet be shaped by our technological evolution i.e. it may not be necessary to argue the merits of off road use if we breed beings with inbuilt 4x4 capacity or, even more unlikely, breed beings with no need to strap a v8 on a lump of steel and use it to get muddy.

It may be possible to argue Rawls conclusions as applied in my assertion. However, by limiting the argument to the simple application of this debate: that is the tolerance of intolerance, it has to be pretty much indisputable unless we get into a more broadly ranging conversation on the benefits or otherwise of other systems of government. A dictatorship as argued for by other forum members might be a different way forward.

A simplistic interpretation of John Locke's ideas on self preservation and the right to property could be employed against the destruction of green lanes by motorised traffic.

Alternatively an application of ideas on human spiritedness as reasoned by Plato and Homer could conclude that mans struggle for recognition and status would be best satisfied by opening the lanes for gladiatorial contest and pitched battle. Then the lanes would be controlled by the last man standing, unhelpful though if your rambler opponent is a SAS bloke out yomping or worse still on a TAB.

I'm happy to take a flask of tea and admire the view.

Also I am very happy to see lanes used where the wheel pressure of the vehicle doesn't cause any damage, as I often point out. I also believe with deep conviction that the countryside should be open to all, especially those with disabilities and where a universal right of access has been enjoyed that right should not be removed without extremely good reason.

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I think the point is that people should be allowed freedom as long as it doesn't hurt someone else. It's defining 'hurt someone else' that presents the problems. Some walkers resent any traffic at all, simply because they've gone to the countryside to get away from traffic - quite understandable. Yet there are many more miles of walking-only paths than there are drivable paths, so that argument isn't quite right. But if driving a path actually makes it damn nigh unwalkable, then that also can't be right. Slightly different arguments apply to trail bikes - I personally have never had a problem with them, but can see how walkers, cyclists and runners do - the trail bikes are always driven relatively fast.

For the most part, it would seem that if footpaths parallel to the drivable section were feasible, this would deal with the problem - like pavements next to roads. Walkers stick to the walky bits, driven vehicles to the drivable bit. Still leaves cycles in a bit of a no-man's land, though

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By way of an anecdote.

A couple of years ago I was up at Loch Lomond on the west highland way at Inversnaid. At the Hotel were a small collection of 'Bobblies', if memory serves one was an Oncologist, another grew tomatoes for M&S, another an entrepreneur working in business software his wife was a headmistress in Manchester. Also in the group a JP ( magistrate ), a man who ran a metal pressing plant in the midlands and a guy who drilled for oil offshore in the Fortes.

So the 'Bobblies" feed us, educate us, help run our business, deal with our cancers and administer law and order, oh and find the fuel to run the Land Rover if they didn't actually build it.

So I might suggest 'Bobblies' have an opinion worth listening too, patiently accommodating and paying the common decency of respect. You can be very sure the 4x4 community will have been afforded more than enough rope by everyone else before lanes started to be shut.

Shame is my often most felt emotion reading some of the comments on this forum, like a school report I often feel the off road community could, collectively, do much better and certainly, en masse, doesn't do as well as the sterling example of some individual and outstanding members.

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The point I'm trying to make ?

The forum tends to indicate a very polarised 'them and us' attitude. I was just illustrating that Ramblers, Cyclists, Horse riders, etc are valuable members of a wider community, a viewpoint seemingly lost in a contentious, combative and hostile argument.

Calls for a 'cull' would indicate a less than enlightened, progressive and informed approach. Characterising anyone who enjoys walking in the country as a 'bobbly' is overt segregation designed to dehumanise. A study of Fascist or Stalinist literature would understand the dangers implied in that.

I have no doubt the 4x4 community also enjoys many august members, any visit to a gymkhana would illustrate that. However the current tacit approval of general misbehaviour on green lanes on this and other forums would suggest the influence of a more law abiding and generally respectful body of owners wasn't being felt.

All I am attempting to do is be clear that this one member of the forum is completely infavour of Ramblers, is committed to open access to the countryside by all and regards fairness and an open minded approach as the most pragmatic way forward.

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The point I'm trying to make ?

The forum tends to indicate a very polarised 'them and us' attitude. I was just illustrating that Ramblers, Cyclists, Horse riders, etc are valuable members of a wider community, a viewpoint seemingly lost in a contentious, combative and hostile argument.

Calls for a 'cull' would indicate a less than enlightened, progressive and informed approach. Characterising anyone who enjoys walking in the country as a 'bobbly' is overt segregation designed to dehumanise. A study of Fascist or Stalinist literature would understand the dangers implied in that.

I have no doubt the 4x4 community also enjoys many august members, any visit to a gymkhana would illustrate that. However the current tacit approval of general misbehaviour on green lanes on this and other forums would suggest the influence of a more law abiding and generally respectful body of owners wasn't being felt.

All I am attempting to do is be clear that this one member of the forum is completely infavour of Ramblers, is committed to open access to the countryside by all and regards fairness and an open minded approach as the most pragmatic way forward.

Don't know where you get this idea from, this forum does not encourage, support, sponsor any kind of misbehaviour on 'green lanes' and is in favour of a proper respectful attitude towards all other countryside users no matter what provocation.

John

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And Ramblers aren't exactly angels themselves when it comes to 'speaking their mind' when meeting 4x4's on legal rights of way.

So again I don't quite get your point.

Neither side can claim a 'holier than thou' stance. However 4x4 users of the countryside are far more restricted

as to where they can go, yet ramblers insist that these 'right' are shrunk to the point of erradication.

Their entrenched views are no more valid, no matter what sphere of society they come from.

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Great deal on both sides of the argument i don't agree with during this thread, but my 3 pen'th;

When on a lane i have always without fail stopped or if i've been on the bike slowed to a 'paddle' where you're barely moving and put both feet down whenever i have met users on foot. I have again always greeted other users with a smile and good morning/afternoon.

I have been verbally abused and only my own self control prevented a couple of occasions from escalating. I never drive along a lane, see a rambler and jump out to have a go at them for ruining my 'line' along a lane so why do they do it to me? I have every legal right to be there and it is actually a paid right as it forms part of my car tax as IT IS A ROAD.

I used to take my Nan out in my old Disco because she can't walk and is partially sighted, but i don't anymore.

I gave up greenlaning almost altogether a couple of years ago because everyones rights are more important than mine and i know it's me that will end up in the wrong. I've only been laning on a bike since, and i sold that in august.

Roll over and die? Possibly, but what else can you do?

My membership of GLASS was largely pointless, even the local rep was shot at by a landowner and the Police did nothing.

Ramblers have a go when i'm out walking the dog on the local common because they don't like dog plop so they'll just move onto another target. I'm glad about this because at least i haven't spoiled their 'right to moan'. By the way, i am also responsible and pick up my dog plop, but my right to access various areas is curtailed when i have my dog with me.

All the lanes WILL eventually be closed to motorised access, apart from mobility scooters.

There's nothing that can be done about it, same as the hunting ban. There are more people in government who have never been in a 4x4 and swallow all the Rambler's arguments and the government will increasingly change laws to prevent access. Fact.

LARA, GLASS, CRAG and the TRF can do all they like to try and reverse the closure of lanes or just try and slow the process, but it's only delaying the inevitable.

In closing, a brief anecdote;

A few years ago we were marshalling on the Woodpecker Forest Rally when a group of walkers approached the junction we were on. The lead walker walked up to the tape at the side of the track to step under, onto the live forest stage.

We said something along the lines of "i'm sorry you can't go up there, there's a footpath that runs adjacent just there" and received a tyrade in return about her rights to do whatever she liked. My friend lost his rag and told her that her type really wound him up because there were miles of footpaths in that one forest alone and she ought to use some of them rather than spoiling the rally which was only there for a few hours on one day of the year on roads it had paid for access to. She didn't hear a word and continued ranting.

The only reason she stopped ranting is that some of the other members of her group seemed embarrassed with her behaviour so turned around and left her.

Do you remember the Ed Byrne stand-up about the Protestant marches?

"I want to go down that road"

"But you can get to the same place by using that road"

"I want to use that road, because that's the one with all the Catholics in it"

That's greenlaners/mountain bikers/Rambler/Horse riders that is.

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Calls for a 'cull' would indicate a less than enlightened, progressive and informed approach. Characterising anyone who enjoys walking in the country as a 'bobbly' is overt segregation designed to dehumanise. A study of Fascist or Stalinist literature would understand the dangers implied in that.

you have never heard of the term 'Humour' then?

I have no doubt the 4x4 community also enjoys many august members, any visit to a gymkhana would illustrate that.

Indeed it does, there are many differing professionals on this very forum if you would take the time to get to know them. Thats the thing with alot of hobbies - they generally are not specific to any demographic and have a pretty much general cross section of society.

However the current tacit approval of general misbehaviour on green lanes on this and other forums would suggest the influence of a more law abiding and generally respectful body of owners wasn't being felt.

Where do you get that idea from?

None of us have said anything about driving illegal lanes or straying from the designated legal route. What we have said is that we should continue to drive the lanes open to us and if its a bit rainy - not to be pistol whipped by guilt into staying at home on the off chance someone meets us halfway along a lane and complains about our presence there.

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the current tacit approval of general misbehaviour on green lanes on this and other forums

If you spend some time looking through the posts on this forum, you will find discouragement for misbehaviour on green lanes rather than any tacit approval.

  • - Members who have posted some of their outings where they inadvertently done something wrong are given information about why it is wrong
    - There have been a number of threads discussing people abusing specific roads and what can be done about it
    - At the top of this forum is a pinned thread called "Green Laning Advice", which specifically states
If you encounter others abusing the RoW then log registration no, vehicle description, location and time and date and report this to your local CRAG, GLASS or TRF Rep.

So I am surprised that you think that in general this forum has tacit approval of misbehaviour on green lanes.

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I agree with the original poster to be honest, we will inevitably lose all the 'green lanes' at some point so we may as well use them while we can. If I encounter angry ramblers, I just politely inform them of my right to use this lane, and tell them that since they'll all be gone soon I just wish to make the most of them.

That said, I don't drive lanes that I know are hugely rutted or damaged as that's not why I go greenlaning. If I want to get stuck in huge pools of mud I go to a pay-and-play site.

My other hobby, airsoft, suffers from similar problems. Prior to October 2007, anyone over 18 could buy an airsoft weapon (Replica Imitation Firearm), but the Violent Crimes Reduction Act of that time made it against the law to sell them. The airsoft community collaborated and managed to get a specific defense put in place whereby if you can prove your status as an airsoft skirmisher (through a site registration scheme), then you cannot be prosecuted for the crime.

Again, it's only a matter of time before another government implements a full ban on replica weapons and therefore completely destroys the sport, so I make the most of it while I can.

Overall:

Use the lanes while you still can, be courteous to other users, and use common sense when deciding where to go

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From bitter experience in the Yorkshire Dales NP I'd suggest that the last thing you want to do is start pointing out lanes that need repair or a temporary closure. It won't take very long at all for someone to use that as "evidence" that the lane should be closed for good.

For decades we've been pussy footing around limiting numbers in groups, following codes of conduct, worrying about possible damage to lanes etc... and what has it achieved ? It's achieved absolutely b***er all. In return for our efforts we've been handed down closures and nothing in the way of compromise. The ramblers and mountain bikes have destroyed a path, no worries, we'll helicopter in supplies to repair it so they don't get their feet muddy. A 4x4 has left a tyre print, no problem, close the road.

Frankly I no longer give a f**k what impression I give to other RoW users because those other users stopped worrying about my rights years ago. Nothing we can do will stop lanes being closed and nothing we can do will keep them open. LARA tried their best but sadly our other representative groups were far too busy threatening each other with legal action to focus on doing anything to fight closures. I'm always polite to other RoW users but I don't worry myself about their view on whether or not I should be there any more.

If a route is drivable, even if that means using a winch, drive it and enjoy it while you can. If other users get aggro ignore them or film them and post them on youtube so everyone can see how they behave.

:P I agree mate over the years iv'e bean into motor cross,enduro motorbikes,4x4,shooting etc and they have all had negative responses...no matter how polite you are to people,if they don't like what your doing they will cause problems,as you say we've pussy footed round people trying not to upset them but it makes not a blind bit of difference, so use the lanes while you can :P

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How about we all get rooftop signs made, saying something like ROW survey, or ROW rescue, something like that. a couple of orange spinning lights (they don't have to be wired up). Could even go on the offensive and use a clipboard, interview people along the road about their usage habits - even accept complaints about other users. Look official.

(just seen a nice old white lwb safari for sale at Calver - that could look nicely official)

Many years ago I took part in an AWDC National Green Lane day. All the vehicles got a sticker that says.

"Official Survey in Progress" on it.

It's still on the front of my Series 1.

Never had a bad word said agianst me! :P

Marc.

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We as 4x4 drivers should put together a petition . And possibly pay 10 quid a year to go green laning aswell as the ramblers and runners and then maybe they will open more lanes the money should be put back into the lanes . I havent been greenlaning yet as only just got my disco but really want to go

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But tonko, we pay something called Road Tax which should cover the lanes. But as you will notice, very little actually even gets used on the heavily used and abused tarmac roads. The majority of the taxation goes into other (often pointless) projects...

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I agree we pay road tak, but...

Nevertheless, even a voluntary payment scheme toawards maintenance helps give us some 'ownership' - we have a right to be there, some say in how maintenance budget is spent, and so on. Unfortunately, for exactly these reasons, I rather guess that local authorities would refuse to recognise such a scheme! - it all comes down to territoriality - which is exactly the problem!

shame -10 or 20 quid a year, if it worked, is easily doable

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Over the pond in the good ol' U S of A, they have a sponsorship system for many of their trails.

coloradoTrail.jpg

Be cool if something similar could be made to work here in Blighty, I'd happily contribute even though I already pay Road Tax.

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I agree we pay road tak, but...

Nevertheless, even a voluntary payment scheme toawards maintenance helps give us some 'ownership' - we have a right to be there, some say in how maintenance budget is spent, and so on. Unfortunately, for exactly these reasons, I rather guess that local authorities would refuse to recognise such a scheme! - it all comes down to territoriality - which is exactly the problem!

shame -10 or 20 quid a year, if it worked, is easily doable

I'd pay more than that if it kept the lanes open and the antis off our backs. If it cost money to use the lanes then maybe they wouldn't be regarded, by the laning lumpenproletariat, as a free alternative to a pay and play site. I'm not sure how it would work though, to be fair to the 'green land tax payers' you would have to exclude the non payers. The trouble is that they are, or are supposed to be, public roads for all to use.

Laning licences have been mooted in the past, and do have some merits. Behave badly and you could lose it. Administering such a system would be tricky, as would defining bad behaviour.

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First let me say I've been greenlaning for over 25 years. I've been a ROW rep for the AWDC and LARA. I was involved with GLASS from the start and have been a member on and off ever since. I've submitted DMMOs and attended PIs and council meetings, written more letters than i care to remember. So i think that qualifies me to comment.

What a disorganised, amateurish bunch the 4x4 world consists of. Not aimed at individuals, but our collective approach to legislation and other matters that concern us all as 4x4 owners and users. Christ, its one petty squabble after another between groups who should all have the same aim, the antis really don't have to work that hard, we just let them walk all over us.

There are some incredibly knowledgeable and dedicated people that have worked hard for years to keep unsurfaced roads open, and in my opinion it's made absolutely no difference whatsoever.

Nothing has been achieved.

Repairing routes you already pay the council to fix.

Staying off churned up lanes.

Sitting on access (joke) committees.

All worthless.

I don't even think the people who use the lanes for mud plugging or the "tour operators" have made things any worse than they would have been anyway,(idiots though they are).

All motorised traffic will be banned from unsurfaced roads within a few years. I like to think we could have done something to prevent it, too late now.

I can't be arsed anymore.

I still go greenlaning, same as i always did, legally, with respect, avoiding lanes in poor condition.

If I meet an irate user or farmer, in the past I'd have spent the time talking, being polite and calm, trying to put forward our point of view, now I'm just as likely to tell them to Feck off.

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im on the derbyshire area, right on the edge of the peak district, and we have walkists on our land a lot,

and its private, so my dad tells me to go and see what they want,

i drive up to them, tell them nicley that they are on private land and wouldnt they mind to move back onto a footpath, then if thay are a nuicance i use my landy to annoy them, as it is a bit tuned, by giving them a massive puff of diesely tasting black smoke to inhale whilst driving away :P

however, i do see walkists on green lanes when im with my dad etc. and they never seem to be a problem then.

mikey

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