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Megasquirting your V8 - But with MS2 NOT MS1 V3 029v


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This thread has been created as there are now a few Members here who have or are tinkering with MS2.

If you have arrived here thinking "AH HA - A Megasquirt thread - just what I wnat because I am thinking about this / interested

in maybe doing this to my V8...." then THIS IS NOT the thread you should read any further on YET

If this is the case then click here : "Main Megasquirt Thread

And then, and only then maybe come back to this one :lol:....

In the meantime, this now is the thread for all things MS2

Nige :)

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Hello all - this is a great Forum I have to say

I am now considering an MSII and EDIS8 for '98 Discovery 3.9 V8 with auto-gear box. Reading all the stuff available here and other forums

Has anyone some practical advices regarding expected issues I can run into with the auto-gearbox (if any) and MSII?

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Few here use MS11

1st why MS11 and not MS1 V3 ?

MS1 V3 has a number of knowledgeale (many far more than me) on this system, and we can swap stuff, also MS1 V3 029V is stable with no known issues ?

Have a think, MS11 limits (here) help hugely and I will be interested as to why you think you need MS11

Auto Gearboxes have avery differnt VE Map over a manual, I have several (depoendant on engine box FD) that I can help you with

Nige

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Nige, Fridge, thank for pointing me to MS-I - I was already so concentrated on MSII (thinking bigger is better) - that I did not realise that MS I has actually all the necessary features.

I would go MS-I - knowing that there is really a knowledgebase for Rover V8 and MS-I - as there is ZERO knowledge area where I live. EDIS is on its way - now its time to get an MS-I. I would like to order a complete ecu (not a kit) - what options I should ask for? There is nothing special on the engine as of now - but as I said - it is autogearbox - so thanks for pointing the VE impact). Any other suggestions? I need to order quickly as I would like to have it up and running before mid december :)

questions:

1. V8 has 2 narrow band o2 sensor - what should i do? I will use LC-1 for initial tuning - then I will remove it and would want the narrow band to keep eye on the closed loop fueling. Is the One lambda option suficient?

2. Idle control - I;ve reas about some issues with controling the iac valve (I think stock is LUCAS 2ACM) - thus having troubles in running proper idle - any hints on this?

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I would suggest you print off this entire "Megasquirting a V8 from A-Z thread" and read through,

many of the Qs your asking are covered in depth on here, but in quick answer to your post :

what options I should ask for? There is nothing special on the engine as of now - but as I said - it is autogearbox - so thanks for pointing the VE impact). Any other suggestions? I need to order quickly as I would like to have it up and running before mid december :)

Fridge may be worth PMimg, you just wnat a MS1 SnE V3 and if poss use 029v as firmware, the conversion for a PWM Valve is worth doing, read earlier in this thread about this.

questions:

1. V8 has 2 narrow band o2 sensor - what should i do? I will use LC-1 for initial tuning - then I will remove it and would want the narrow band to keep eye on the closed loop fueling. Is the One lambda option suficient?

You don't need a LC1 to do the tunning in fact I have tunned mine and others with a Narrow Band and MLV, others here (BBC) has done as I have then plugged in an LC1 and found the NB and MLV has done the job, again read the section in here on datalogging and tunning.

2. Idle control - I;ve reas about some issues with controling the iac valve (I think stock is LUCAS 2ACM) - thus having troubles in running proper idle - any hints on this?

Yep, the Range Rover 3.9 stepper motor is 1st F expensive when it goes wrong, 2nd, it goes wrong 3rd messy compared with a 2 wire bosch PWM valve which MS1 can control, again read earlier in this thread this is cover in depth, and is linked to the ECU mod you need

:)

Nige

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Thanks for the responses :) I have read the thread (briefly) but just wanted to be sure as some of the posts are already 1 year old. I have got some helpful drawings from Philip Lochner - from his conversion - and he was using MSII - that is why I was aiming towards MS2 rather than MS1.

Thanks

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WHY are you back on MS2 again ?...thought you were going MS1 ?

The number of people here on MS1 is vast as is their expertise,

this way everything is interchangeable,

I have done some work on 2x MS2 ECU MSQs and it took me an age to get the software sorted

and then sort out the mess that was the MSQ they had in there, on MS1 it would have taken probably a 50th of my time,

hence now why I and other say MS1 as there are so many variants of ECU Config loading up the right software / firmware

unless you know exactly / and if someone here has that makes it something I now stay well away from

unless it turns into a "Paid £££ Please Please sort & Tune" and even then I would prefer MS1

If there is no specific or really reaallly good reason for you getting MS2 don't .............go MS1 V3 pref 029v

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OK - I am having PM conversation with Fridge - to finalize the MS1 setup :)

Another one - logging speed - how many records per seconds are you actually getting - I ve seen some with 6 lines/sec and one log with 12 lines/sec (the amount of parameters logged seemed to be the same)? While tuning a boosted mitsu evo engine - 6 records are insufficient to see issues. NA V8 is not such a big deal - but anyway - what is the real logging speed.

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OK - I am having PM conversation with Fridge - to finalize the MS1 setup :)

Another one - logging speed - how many records per seconds are you actually getting - I ve seen some with 6 lines/sec and one log with 12 lines/sec (the amount of parameters logged seemed to be the same)? While tuning a boosted mitsu evo engine - 6 records are insufficient to see issues. NA V8 is not such a big deal - but anyway - what is the real logging speed.

Use the MLV and MS Megatune deafults with a Narrow Band sensor, you don't need to change any of them, BBC has tweaked one setting on his which was from a MS Thread, I tried it, made little / no noticable difference. The Baud rate from your PC to MS doesn't like being played about with and a serial port is more stable than a USB to Serial adapter - one of the issues being getting the rate right for datatransfer, use the std settings there more than good enough, and there are some users with really exotic V8 builds that use std settings according to the MS website. You don't need a LC1 a Narrowband GTM7002 from uniparts at £30 is more than good enough

The Joy (as you will find) is using MS1 V3 029v much of base work if not all the base work is done already, get it, start it, learn and play, if then you find you have messed it up just reload the last saved decent config. DO make sure you have read all this thread many of the Qs you have will be answered and DON'T overcomplicate things too much, there is no need

There is a section of logging speeds in the Megatune manual, I have read it but I didn't have my ear plugs in so it all escaped :P

Nige

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Regarding the comments on MS2, I think it depends on the situation:

* As reliable replacement / upgrade for their Lucas ECU, possibly folk who are new to MS and looking for a tried and tested path giving maximum compatibility for swapping maps with others and support through forums so it makes sense to keeping everyone on the same version and similar setup.

or

* In the spirit of the MS developers (how cheesy does that sound :lol: ), to experiment with different versions and algorithms perhaps test the latest alpha version and give feedback trying to improve upon an already good system. The downside is that there is generally less support available in the community and some stuff may not work as expected or not be as proven.

I agree that many of the MS2Extra functions won't give huge advantages on the Rover V8 but there is interesting work going on in perfecting idle control and acceleration enrichment and you get greater injector precision as standard.

I haven't tried MS2 but did change over to the HR_10g (High Resolution) firmware (still on the same MS1 v3 board). Using the standard firmware, I struggled to get both a rapid response to changes in throttle (I tried every possible setting with acceleration enrichment) AND get a stable AFR at idle. HiRes gives additional precision on injector timing and all the features of the standard MS1Extra with the exception of PWM injector control. My idle AFR is now bang on and i get good throttle response so happy with that :)

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  • 2 months later...
I have just read this from start to finish (over two evenings :P) and i really cannot see my self ever being able to install this, I'm not to great at all with wires! tune/play around - mabye!

Do not worry - my mechanical machining abilities are very poor, electrical slightly better than mechanical and I have managed to make it work to the extent that it runs. Now I am tuninng the tables so that the cars runs smoothly and has better MPG. Will see ....

EDIT: Of course - a lot of reading here and there was necessary; good advices from guys here as well. My MSII has been built by Phil Ringwood - I wouldn't be able to do it and fridge was out of stock at that moment :)

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  • 5 weeks later...

IIRC there are 74, 82, 88°C thermostats for the pre-P38-V8 provided by Rover. 74° isn´t standard European fitment I think. 90/110 got 82°. 88° is 3.9V8

I chose the 82° thermostat for my 3.9 (actually 4.2) and have calibrated the coolant sensor (with one of the 3 points MS asks for close) to that temperature. Even though MS always thinks it operates at 71-73°C coolant temperature.

How close is your coolant reading to the thermostat´s opening temperature ??

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You've calibrated the what now? :huh:

You can't really calibrate the coolant sensor to the stat (they're not terribly accurate and don't hold the temperature very constant) and you certainly don't re-calibrate it when you change the stat as the sensor is still measuring the same thing. You should use this calibration file for the Rover V8 sensor.

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ah .. no .. misunderstandig.

I tried it with your file but got readings which differed by many degrees. Checked my sensor with ice and boiling water etc and got different measurements compared to your file. Contacted a MS user with another ex-hotwire V8 and his measurements were close to those I made. Was puzzled and thought the offset of the sensor to real temperature was due to calibration or that my 3.9´s sensor was faulty or they were different to the 3.5V8 (to which your file belonged, I thought).

Therefore I decided to buy a Bosch sensor (which is a same size and thread as the OEM one) for which then I had a calibration table of which I was sure it would fit that sensor. All that didn´t help as much as I wanted:

With MS2 you can put in a 3-point table. I chose to use the 82° resistance value from the Bosch calibration table to be one of the 3 points. That way I expected MS to measure the operating temperature as true as possible. Not other way round.

Now I still get wrong reading (being 6-7° lower than true at cold start) and at fully warm engine I get, as said, 72°C while the thermostat is supposed to open at 82°C. The thermostat was/is new and while I don´t expect it to be precise I hadn´t expected a full 10° difference. Point is I am unsure whether the coolant really is 72°C or something else is wrong. That´s why I asked for your experience and general coolant temps.

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I think you are getting what these do not just muddled up but looking for things that are non exisitant, and

making what are 2 simple things into a overly complex and irrelevent mess

Thermostat

A thermostats 'Job' is to aid engine warm uop, and then open and close so as to try to help regulate the engines temp - Period

Dependant on where exactly you measure the engine coolant you will get differing temps with any stat in there,

ie the water at the entry to the rad will be vastly differing to the water as it exits, or the water in the Bore jacket,

or the inlet, or the heater pipes,

The Thermostat is more a 'Range event', and the lower stats make the engine run cooler, and there is no connection

between a Thermostat and a CTS - other than by accident or minor interaction .

Thes units are really inaccrate, even between new 2x versions of the same stat, and are there to control temps

within a margin, and not to give accurate detailed readings or assist in ECU Tables directly

CTS

The CTS is in the front end on the inlet manifold,

its job is to provide a rnage of temp readings for a gauage in the cab / engine enrichment, this unit senses esp as

to if the engine is cold and if so then to add extar fuekl to allow starting, and then warm up enrichments via VE.

The units required by MS for this sensor are well documented and more than capaable for what is required,

however these readings are at best basic, ie shove the engine (hot) into cold water) and the sensor when dumped

as such could think it is cold (its not) and even trigger WUE / additional fuels dependant on EFI system, it is an

independant sensor to aid fuelling / start up, and is not directly linked to thermostat, ie change the thermostat

from 72 to 90 and this doesn't mean any recalibration is required for the CTS, the engine will simplt run hotter - period.

You are at risk of trying to 'juggle soot', -

Whilst theoretically possible, 2 questions -

Does it need to be done ?

Why bother ?

Sorry, but there are instances (I too am guilty of doing sometimes) and also in this thread of people overly complicating something quite simple and then making it into something that it either isn't or that is just neither needed or of value, I think is exactly one of those things, and is making what is a simple situation into a complex and rather pointless saga

Nige

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What Nige said - I don't know what you're comparing your CTS reading with but unless it's a pretty accurate thermometer placed at the same point as the CTS you're wasting your time, most devices are fairly inaccurate, the CTS itself included, so as long as it's in the ballpark (+/-10deg) you need to forget about it and worry about something else.

Oh and Nige, I've never known you over-complicate anything :ph34r: honest :lol:

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Somewhere back in the depths of this thread I'm sure I will find the definitive map files for a 3.9.

Before I go searching for it/them I need to know if it will be compatible with MSII as I believe most before me have been using MSI or MSnS-extra.

Ran my completed MS on the stim for the first time yesterday and all seems to be working fine.

When I load up someone else's map does that set all the other parameters like sensor calibration etc or do I have to work through and set those separately?

Thanks

Steve

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Having had another read please see comments :

I chose the lower thermostat (82° seemed to be a nice, safe and regular choice) to keep the engine cooler than standard due to the alu/steel expansion issues and cracking block syndrome. Main aim is longevity. But it is not like the cooler the better. IIRC the MM says that a thermostat of 74°C is the lowest recommended for street use. Lower than that will increase wear on the engine (my aim is longevity).

Yes spot on but a 74 degree stat will see a running temp of higher than that - its a nightmare to explain but belive me when I say that a 74 stat will run huigh than 74, and yes a V8 at 74 will run too cold and cause wear - think and use the various stats as a "V8 Engine temp tuning tool" forget what they say the stas are temp wise - read the actaul results and go up down to get 80-84 90% time :)

At first I forgot to calibrate the CTS and with the default MT read a coolant temp that was 1° off only....

I rest me case M Lud :)

Is it really that mindless to be unsure about having coolant temperatures (remember, my MT gauge shows 72°C) in an increase-wear range or just a common offset of thermostats that all of you observe ??

Getting your engine to run at the right temp (say 80-84 IMHO) is an art form. It will depend on what fans you have and how many, the radiator size core and rows in it, the cowling and heat exits and loads more the stat is more a way to tune to what you have and get to 80+ ish,.... if you are below 80 then your cooling is (too) good ...and up the stat to get he MS to say 80-84 ish :) but whats the weather / temps with you at the moment - makes a vast diffetrence when weather is freezing cold .....as here :(

my aim is longevity

quite so, to get this you;ll need oil and water temps in the right ranges, pay less attention to the sensor and stat temp range and more to what the actaul resultant heat in engine is, be carefull also where you take the measurement, but CTS Position is a good one :)

Nige

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Steve - you can't load an MS-I settings file (.MSQ) into an MS-II as they work a bit differently. You can, however, load an exported fuel or spark table (.VEX file) and that should work. You are probably best off setting the rest of it by hand, you can copy a lot of stuff across but some settings will be different and TBH you're rather in a minority running MS-II so you'll have to feel your way a bit.

Landybehr - I understand your reasons but I believe you are treating a very basic engine as if it was an F1 engine. Worrying about a change in coolant temperature that is smaller than the error margins on both your temp gauge and your thermostat seems rather pointless. When you hit something with a hammer you don't worry if the weight of the hammer is calibrated to the nearest 0.1g :lol:

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Can someone please supply me with matching fuel and spark tables for a 3.9. I only need pictures as I will have to type them in being a rebel using MSII.

Have had a troll back through the thread and have found both but they came from different sources so am not confident they will sit well together. Also the spark table was quite extreme and I'm not sure I want to go that far out on a limb for my first run.

Many thanks

Steve

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Me again with more questions.

Thanks Nige for the .msq. Could not load it as it was MS1 but have opened it in MegaTune on my desktop PC which has allowed me to compare it with my version on the laptop alongside. I do except that there may well be a mismatch and that in itself may be why some of my questions seem a little strange.

So to the questions. They may be a little random but they came out of trying to load the different parameters into MSII.

1. What is the max revs a standard 3.9 Serpentine will go too without pushing it too far?

2. The above comes from setting a rev limiter but has the next question of which type, Spark retard or Fuel cut?

The msq from Nige has fuel cut but with 6000 and 500 rpm which means it will cut the fuel at 6000rpm but not restore the fuel until the engine gets down to 500rpm which I would expect to cause a stall.

3. Acceleration enrichment. Nige’s msq has this starting at 2500rpm.

I would have thought you need this to come in way before that particularly on a manual where you want some grunt from low down. Any thoughts?

4. The msq from Nige has one of the base ignition settings ‘Coil Charge Scheme’ selected as ‘Standard Coil Charge’.

I don’t know for sure but thought Nige was running Edis so would have expected Edis to be selected.

Any thoughts?

5. The msq from Nige has no battery voltage compensation set in Dwell Settings.

Any thoughts?

6. Injection control. Should I use 2 or 4 injections per cycle?

The manual advises 2 but has 4?

7. Idle control. I have fitted the Bosch valve and set up the % of air across the temp range in MegaTune.

In the msq from Nige the last value is set too 2% which may answer the question….How do I set the normal idle at running temperature?

On my 3.5 there was a screw in the throttle body which allowed air bypass for idle control but this is blanked off on the 3.9. The thread may well have been machined before the blank was fitted but I don’t want to dig the blank out and perhaps mess things up on the offchance. The alternatives are to use the PWM idle which would mean the valve is chattering away at all driving conditions or hold the butterfly open with the throttle cable which is not very accurate or repeatable.

8. Last one. The msq from Nige has Hot ASE disabled. Is this to do with the IAT sensor heat soak problem that has been discussed or do we just not need it?

I have installed my IAT beside the filter which is under the front wing so away from most of the engine heat.

Sorry it’s rather long.

Steve

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Thats not an MS1 MSQ thats a MS2 MSQ but most prob a differing Firmaware as wsuch much will get scrambled / zero'd corrupted

I think there may be a need for a MS2 thread, as again, anyone who gets this far may now panick about even considering fitting MS and run away, what it being discussed here is both advanced and different in so many ways to MS1 V3 029v which the majority here use.

I'll leave this for a while, but will prune this thread to aviod scaring off newbies to MS, I won't delete, but move prob to a new thread, hope all underatnd the logic in doing this ?

nige

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