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I was just having a think - dangerous thing I know...


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Further to this: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Buyin...cle/DG_10014199

All the talk about cars not keeping their ID and points scoring. With the DVLA watching us an all.

Does anyone have any info on how these points are validated or even the criteria required to mean that it should even be assed in the first place?

In the link above it says this:

Allocating a vehicle registration mark

The vehicle must score eight or more points to retain the original registration mark. If less than eight points are scored or a second-hand or modified chassis or altered monocoque bodyshell is used, an enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA), single vehicle approval (SVA) or motorcycle single vehicle approval (MSVA) certificate will be required to register the vehicle. A 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated.

Scoring components

The following values will be allocated to the major components used:

• chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points

• suspension = 2 points

• axles = 2 points

• transmission = 2 points

• steering assembly = 2 points

• engine = 1 point

Where there is evidence that two vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie 'cut and shut') a 'Q' mark will be allocated. ESVA, SVA or MSVA will be required.

But it doesn’t say what qualifies or why?

I ask this because then entire section is headed as:

Registering a radically altered vehicle

Let me explain.

If you took a Discovery 3.5 V8i manual (LT77) and you swapped in a Land Rover 3.9 V8i, R380 gearbox, put some HD suspension on it (basically new shocks and springs), relocated the steering damper and put up-rated half shafts and CV joints in the axles. Would this now need to be SVA’d???

According to the list, only the chassis would have remained and it would have scored 5 points. So an SVA and a Q-plate??

Or are these changes not radical enough? So what is radical?

Anyone have any clarity on what is or isn’t allowed?

It all seems very confusing to me, with a total lack or clarification and distinction.

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It's done on a like for like basis. So in the example you used there have been no radical changes, It's still a v8 petrol engine, a 5 speed manual g/box and coil sprung beam axles, all made by the same manufacturer as the vehicle, it wont matter if the parts are new or second hand.

The axle internals are immaterial and don't count.

The chassis holds the vehicles identity therefore you can replace it with a brand new one but not a second hand one as that will already hold an ID for the vehicle it came from.

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So what your saying is if I wanted to change just the body due (200tdi) to rot and replaced it with a second hand body from say V8i discovery I will get a "Q" plate. And if i got a brand new from Landrover or a unregeisted shell I get to keep the plate? As there was a lot of rot on this shell I was looking in to it but could not make sense of the wording. ..JJ

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It's done on a like for like basis. So in the example you used there have been no radical changes, It's still a v8 petrol engine, a 5 speed manual g/box and coil sprung beam axles, all made by the same manufacturer as the vehicle, it wont matter if the parts are new or second hand.

The axle internals are immaterial and don't count.

The chassis holds the vehicles identity therefore you can replace it with a brand new one but not a second hand one as that will already hold an ID for the vehicle it came from.

So when does it become radical though??

It doesn't seem to state on that webpage what change causes it to be in need of checking.

Depending on how you read it, taking a Range Rover and chopping it down and putting an 88" body on should not cause an issue so long as you keep the RR ID and reg on it.

The engine would not have changed = 1 point

The suspension would not have changed = 2 points

The axles would not have changed = 2 points

The steering would not have changed = 2 points

The transmission would not have changed = 2 points

And technically the chassis is still original and not a monocoque so the bodywork forms no part of it. In affect it would be like fitting a form of bodykit = 5 points

Worst case the vehicle would score 9 points or the maximum 14 points.

I really would quite like to see some details on how something is radical or not.

Is swapping a 2.25 petrol for a 2.25 diesel engine in a SIII radical - well in some ways yes, its a different fuel type. But at the end of the day they are the same block and the same displacement.

How about fitting a 2.5d instead of a 2.25? Radical? Would you still lose a point for doing this or would it be considered a suitable replacement part?

If anyone can shed any further light on this then I'd be very interested.

Thanks.

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"Depending on how you read it, taking a Range Rover and chopping it down and putting an 88" body on should not cause an issue so long as you keep the RR ID and reg on it."

Yes..... it would as you have altered the chassis from its original type approval(IIRC is say un-modified), you can replace it with a new chassis like for like (new with a receipt)

<-----------

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"Depending on how you read it, taking a Range Rover and chopping it down and putting an 88" body on should not cause an issue so long as you keep the RR ID and reg on it."

Yes..... it would as you have altered the chassis from its original type approval(IIRC is say un-modified), you can replace it with a new chassis like for like (new with a receipt)

<-----------

ok, yes I missed that, it does say modified chassis. However it still doesn't explain much else though.

Do you have any more detailed info on the requirements for this, or know of where any additional info can be found?

It's things more like engine, transmission and suspension that I'd really like clarification on.

Would swapping stock shocks for Pro Comp +2" and some HD springs be counted as a radical change and subject to 2 points loss when evaluated kinda thing?

Not just in relation to LR's either. But other cars, maybe like a classic Triumph GT6. You could easily change lots of parts, although still remain for most peoples intent stock yet have an easy score or less than 8 depending on how you look at it.

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"Depending on how you read it, taking a Range Rover and chopping it down and putting an 88" body on should not cause an issue so long as you keep the RR ID and reg on it."

Yes..... it would as you have altered the chassis from its original type approval(IIRC is say un-modified), you can replace it with a new chassis like for like (new with a receipt)

<-----------

Sorry ;)

Just thinking about this again.

If you took that same scenario of the RR, yet kept it's 100" wheelbase and fitted a Defender body (100" version), then you wouldn't have a modified chassis (unless you count the out riggers/cross members) and it would still be original.

Not that I plan on doing this, I just wouldn't mind knowing the answers.

Thanks :)

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........If you took that same scenario of the RR, yet kept it's 100" wheelbase and fitted a Defender body (100" version), then you wouldn't have a modified chassis (unless you count the out riggers/cross members) and it would still be original.......

I was told by DVLA and VOSA that any change to the chassis including simply moving the engine mounts constitutes 'modified' and would require SVA.

In my case having chopped off the last 18" of chassis DVLA allocated a new chassis number which I had to stamp into the chassis before SVA.

Steve

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swapping the body shell shouldn't constitute an SVA, as you have not altered the chassis/running gear. only the bodyplan.

same as cutting the back off a 3dr disco and making a pick up, leaving the chassis intact of course, no change to chassis - no sva - as it's only a change of bodyplan.

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swapping the body shell shouldn't constitute an SVA, as you have not altered the chassis/running gear. only the bodyplan.

same as cutting the back off a 3dr disco and making a pick up, leaving the chassis intact of course, no change to chassis - no sva - as it's only a change of bodyplan.

If you can swap the body (ie 110 onto RRC chassis) without changing the body mount points on the chassis then yes the chassis is unmodified so should retain its identity but that is not to say they won't want it SVA'd to make sure you have done a proper/safe job of it.

I got the feeling that this could be dependant on the DVLA inspector. If he/she has an engineering background they may be happy to inspect it themselves. The converse is that the inspector has no engineering knowledge so will revert to SVA.

Steve

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Additional to you asking the DVLA if it needs an SVA is premise that during an MOT the tester would recognise and notify the DVLA of any changes that would require an SVA.

I find this a bit surprising as most MOT testers I have met cannot even examine a standard LR in the first place.

Marc.

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Additional to you asking the DVLA if it needs an SVA is premise that during an MOT the tester would recognise and notify the DVLA of any changes that would require an SVA.

I find this a bit surprising as most MOT testers I have met cannot even examine a standard LR in the first place.

Marc.

I agree there, my cousin recently bought a TR7 from a trader who had it MOT'd. Nothing strange in that, except the inertia reel setbelts didn't work. Makes you wonder what they checked??

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ive read alot on this and im confused when i brought my 90 its got a range rover engine and gear box and rear axel i remember reading somewhere that this dosnt need sva because the 90 on v5 is registered now as landrover and model is landrover not defender or 90 but have also read that because the rear axel is a range rover it dose need sva im abit lost on this as i brought it like this

i too think it just gose on who you ask and who inspects it

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ive read alot on this and im confused when i brought my 90 its got a range rover engine and gear box and rear axel i remember reading somewhere that this dosnt need sva because the 90 on v5 is registered now as landrover and model is landrover not defender or 90 but have also read that because the rear axel is a range rover it dose need sva im abit lost on this as i brought it like this

i too think it just gose on who you ask and who inspects it

If your V5 has the correct engine size, fuel type and the engine number is correct then as far as I'm concerned it is correctly registered.

Steve

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Again, it's like for like. So you can replace say a drum braked 90 rear axle with a disc braked Disco or RRC axle as the axles are to all intents the same, the brake system carries no points. you can change coil springs or dampers as much as you like so long as all the mounting points remain the same. Up or down size a v8 petrol or 4 pot petrol or diesel, fine. swap a v8 for a tdi, lose engine points.

Swap a Disco body for a RRC and you'll lose the body points, stick a Land Rover body on and its SVA, as you will have to modify the chassis significantly to fit it.

The vehicle identity stays with the CHASSIS, original or brand new replacement, UNTIL you lose enough points OR modify it, then it's Q plate.

To put it in simple terms, if it's a straight forward nut and bolt job you should be fine.

Anything that involves cutting or welding the chassis puts you in SVA and Q territory.....technically!

In reality I doubt you'd have problem with welding the odd bracket or even shifting an engine mount.

You couldn't get away with changing all the body mounts, changing the wheelbase or cutting big lumps off.

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Again, it's like for like. So you can replace say a drum braked 90 rear axle with a disc braked Disco or RRC axle as the axles are to all intents the same, the brake system carries no points. you can change coil springs or dampers as much as you like so long as all the mounting points remain the same. Up or down size a v8 petrol or 4 pot petrol or diesel, fine. swap a v8 for a tdi, lose engine points.

Swap a Disco body for a RRC and you'll lose the body points, stick a Land Rover body on and its SVA, as you will have to modify the chassis significantly to fit it.

The vehicle identity stays with the CHASSIS, original or brand new replacement, UNTIL you lose enough points OR modify it, then it's Q plate.

To put it in simple terms, if it's a straight forward nut and bolt job you should be fine.

Anything that involves cutting or welding the chassis puts you in SVA and Q territory.....technically!

In reality I doubt you'd have problem with welding the odd bracket or even shifting an engine mount.

You couldn't get away with changing all the body mounts, changing the wheelbase or cutting big lumps off.

This is the dumb bit.

You can replace each corner of the chassis as a repair and it is OK no SVA.

However modify a RRC chassis so it has the same configuration as a LR and even though that is exactly what Land Rover did to make the early 90, 100 and 110 models that an SVA.

Sorry this is not for safety this is purely about concerns of ringing.

It's OK to make a copy of a classic out of new parts and pass that off as the real thing but not to make a Hybred where you are admitting it is not original and hurts no one.

Phew rant over.

Marc.

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This is the dumb bit.

You can replace each corner of the chassis as a repair and it is OK no SVA.

However modify a RRC chassis so it has the same configuration as a LR and even though that is exactly what Land Rover did to make the early 90, 100 and 110 models that an SVA.

Sorry this is not for safety this is purely about concerns of ringing.

It's OK to make a copy of a classic out of new parts and pass that off as the real thing but not to make a Hybred where you are admitting it is not original and hurts no one.

Phew rant over.

Marc.

Yes i know what you're saying but we still need rules to ensure vehicle safety and to prevent illegal vehicles.

It's how the rules are defined and applied that's the problem.

Straightforward repairs and replacements are easily coped with by the MOT system, modifications are not.

That should be where the SVA comes in, the trouble is it was never really designed to cope with the type of mods that we generally do. What's needed is a VIC/Enhanced MOT, to deal with the situation in a more streamlined, easily understandable and affordable way.

VOSA are not 4x4 experts, as qualified as they may be, they deal with general vehicle identity and safety issues.

Now if VOSA really wanted to get their head around this and understand the issues, Who would they speak to?

That is the problem, we do not have any kind of representative body, despite the amount of both amateur and professional builders and the huge modified parts industry.

The kit car and classic car world seem to be able to lobby, why can't we?

Probably because we can't even agree who's "show" will be the best. :(

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Swap a Disco body for a RRC and you'll lose the body points,

Not true. The body on a vehicle with a separate chassis counts for no points at all. Swapping the body on a Disco or RRC is perfectly legal - as long as you tell the DVLA that you have done it.

You only get points for a unitary bodyshell - like on a Freelander, for example. However if you mess around with the bodyshell its 'null points' and SVA/IVA time.

As others have said you really speak to tour local DVLA office before you start to find out just what they regard as a modification. I'd be inclined to get anything they say in writing too.

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Not true. The body on a vehicle with a separate chassis counts for no points at all. Swapping the body on a Disco or RRC is perfectly legal - as long as you tell the DVLA that you have done it.

You only get points for a unitary bodyshell - like on a Freelander, for example. However if you mess around with the bodyshell its 'null points' and SVA/IVA time.

As others have said you really speak to tour local DVLA office before you start to find out just what they regard as a modification. I'd be inclined to get anything they say in writing too.

True, my mistake.

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There are a couple of "No No's" which if you do / have now your in a world of S***e :( both are chassi related

The chassis is often key to the route you go as to if you need and SVA / Q / or not.....

For points system chassi = 5 out of required 8 (essential :) )

1 - Chassis

Either it does not have the same number on it / or not number that is what is on the / your V5. This

is where the V5 has one chassis number, but you / someone has "Swapped" the chassis for another

with another number or worse still no number / ground it out, this is a world of pain where there

is no good news, ..............your in trouble . full stop.

2 - Chassis modified

You / someone has either reduced / increased the wheelbase or shortened either the front or more often the rear of the chassis.

If your chassis is say a Range Rover one, and it now has a 90 rear cross member then thats another / same world of pain as above

Either points 1 OR 2 = SVA

no exceptions no work arounds,

thats that,

if not SVA 4x4 is now illegal - and frankly thats the start of you problems

not the end of them - as an SVA may prob next to impossible to get

as per which class you try to get approval via, not doing just means your now driving an 100% illegal 4x4..... :(

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Worth clarifying there HfH, that replacing a knackered chassis with a brand new bolt-in replacement from Richards or Marsland for example doesn't require an SVA/whatever and is just considered a replacement part like any other as you're not modifying it. It's when you replace your knackered chassis with one from another already registered vehicle, or modify your existing chassis as above that the problems can arise.

That's how I've always read the rules anyway, hopefully I've got the right end of the stick :)

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Worth clarifying there HfH, that replacing a knackered chassis with a brand new bolt-in replacement from Richards or Marsland for example doesn't require an SVA/whatever and is just considered a replacement part like any other as you're not modifying it. It's when you replace your knackered chassis with one from another already registered vehicle, or modify your existing chassis as above that the problems can arise.

That's how I've always read the rules anyway, hopefully I've got the right end of the stick :)

Yes your right I guess to follow on :

3 - Replacing your rotten chassis with a 100% new one with manufactuers recpiet (which you will need) = OK / no SVA

4 - Replacing your knackered rotten leaf sprung chassis - but with a brand spanking new 'arrow' one - (which has the same

dims as the origianl but the mountings are all for a coil sprung pair of axles) = 5 points for the chassis but then

you loose the points for axles and suspension etc :(

Nige

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