jimmy_neutron Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 I have worked out that the easiest was is to just to buy the complete assembly TRC103140 but ashcrofts don't have one unfortunately and they cost serious money. So I have been digging around to find another way... I've been offered a TD5 gearbox with transfer box still attached off a 2006 defender thats done about 26000 miles for £400 +vat + delivery. I need a bell housing FTC4018. I can't get one of these so Western has kindly talked me into making one. Next i will need the short pinion.. and this is where my question is ... I think i need FTC1428 but can someone please confirm this ?? I have also been told that the early r380's have got a 26 tooth cog on the pinion and the Td5 R380 has 27 teeth. Can't find any other info relating to this though.. Anyone else built there own short R380 cos its starting to drive me mental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 I need a bell housing FTC4018. I can't get one of these so Western has kindly talked me into making one. No Didn't I deny all knowledge of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_neutron Posted April 27, 2009 Author Share Posted April 27, 2009 No Didn't I deny all knowledge of it Well .. when i got thinking about it, it cant be that hard can it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Your on your own with this & if I find my R380 is missing I'll know whose nicked it won't I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_neutron Posted April 27, 2009 Author Share Posted April 27, 2009 Your on your own with this & if I find my R380 is missing I'll know whose nicked it won't I Now theres a good plan B). I'll swap ya .. ur box for a pint o whiskey. Only problem is i wouldn't trust my box to last me all the way down to cornwall otherwise i'd take ya up on that offer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
townsend Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 why not swap engine bell housing flywheel and rear oil seal from a 300 engine onto your 200 and change your engine mounts to move your engine forward into the position of a 300. heard of this done before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Now theres a good plan B) . I'll swap ya .. ur box for a pint o whiskey.Only problem is i wouldn't trust my box to last me all the way down to cornwall otherwise i'd take ya up on that offer that's not a offer minivin on here made one http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=14526 might be worth a PM to him for pictures/method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_neutron Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 why not swap engine bell housing flywheel and rear oil seal from a 300 engine onto your 200 and change your engine mounts to move your engine forward into the position of a 300. heard of this done before. Thanks for that .... I had thought of moving the engine forward and in fact i'm starting to think that that may be the way to go. I didn't really want to do this cos i'm planning on a galv chassis in a couple of years so don't want to modify the mounts to the chassis. Was thinking though that i couple modify some engine to chassis brackets and thus keep the original chassis mountings. If i used a suffix L R380 from a TD5 will this bellhousing fit directly onto my 200tdi ? Do i really need to change the flywheel and rear seal ? I'll need to extend the exhaust down pipe 30mm, anything else i'll need to do ?? TA JN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Jimmy, wouldn't it be easier to just put another LT77 in ? Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_neutron Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 Jimmy, wouldn't it be easier to just put another LT77 in ? Mo well .. yes it would my original lt77 started with the clunk about 18 months ago. I got it reconned 15 months ago. I didn't do it myself as i couldn't do with the van off the road for more than 3 days. Its been tight ever since and quite difficult when cold and now leaks oil. So i have given up with it. My thought about an lt77 is that i would probably rebuild it myself this time so i know its right but even then its gonna cost a bit and it will never be as smooth to drive as an R380 suffix L. TBH i'm just sick of messing about and want a proper job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Sounds like you have the wrong oil in the LT77........ If it is just leaking, replace the seals.... You don't need a new gearbox. The R380 is not really much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 the TD5 L suffix has the wrong input shaft for a TDi engine. The clutch splines are totally different. You would need to rebuild the L box and fit the TDi input shaft. Personally i would use a standard defender 300TDi box and move the chassis mounts. You say you dont want to do this because of getting a galv chassis later, however all it would mean is you buy a galv chassis for a 300tdi rather than a 200, the engine mounts are the only difference between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirstybeast Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Anyone else built there own short R380 cos its starting to drive me mental. Jimmy I hope you carry on with this as I want to do something simmilar. I have a V8 R380 that I need to put a 300 tdi shaft into so it fits better on my 200 TDI engine. I havnt tackled it yet as I know the gear ratios are diffrent for some of the gears and think the bearing size changed on later model R380 for TD5. As mine is a 99 year box it may well be at the cross over period so its like opening a can of worms. I took some pictures of a partialy stripped gear box that I am studying at the moment to see how much work is involved but would be happier if some else had done it on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 A V8 R380 (From a disco?) has exactly the same length of shaft as a 300tdi R380 from a defender or a disco as far as i'm aware. The only difference is the spigot bearing diameter, and it will cost buttons for a machine shop to knock up the correct bush on a lathe. Certainly much cheaper than rebuilding the box with an alternative shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_neutron Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 Some kind person dropped off some engine mounts this morning .. so out i went tape measure in hand and then i found my first error .. I thought i needed to move my engine forward 30mm but in fact i need to move it forward 188mm to take a td5 gearbox. Soooo back to plan A. I'm gonna rebuild a transfer box off a 300tdi disco and I'm gonna strip a td5 R380 suffix L, and rebuild it with a short pinion. Only problem is that i can only find a short pinion for a suffix J so i need to find a good plan for that otherwise i gotta fit a new layshaft etc as well .. Thats it .. hardest bit is done .. I made a decision Wish me luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 As i pointd out earlier the TD5 box has a different clutch spline to the tdi one, so it wouldnt fit streight on anyway. Whats the problem with moving the engine forwards? It surely makes far more sense to use the easily available 300tdi parts than trying to mess around with a short housing/shaft/etc, unless there is some major issue with moving the engine forward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirstybeast Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 A V8 R380 (From a disco?) has exactly the same length of shaft as a 300tdi R380 from a defender or a disco as far as i'm aware. The only difference is the spigot bearing diameter, and it will cost buttons for a machine shop to knock up the correct bush on a lathe. Certainly much cheaper than rebuilding the box with an alternative shaft. Mine is a 1999 Defender carbed 3.5 V8 R380 and the shaft is a bit too short. This means the clutch plate does not have enough spline engaging so they tend to wear, I agree the top hat bush solution cures the spigot bearing problem as I have this. Tearing the splines out of the clutch due to the shaft being to short caused me to be stranded in the middle of no wear recently, a new A&P clutch plate soon had me on the road but I need a long term solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Have you used a 200TDi or 300TDi bellhousing? the 200TDi came with an LT77, and the input shaft on the LT77 is longer, so using an LT77 bellhousing on an R380 might well give the symptoms you describe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinny Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Ive played around with an shortish R380. I had a free disco td5 r380 so rebuilt it with defender internals and lt77 belhousing. It was alot of messing but my time is free to me anyway! I had an lt77 behind a 2.8trooper which already had new mounts welded into the chassy so moving them was no problem. I tracked down a company who said they could recut splines into the input shaft, so sent off the td5 shaft to have the shaft shortened, the splines recut and the shaft rehardened. When I got the shaft back it had been cut and shut, the shaft was "too hard" to cut the splines! Anyway they turned down the shaft so that one end would slide into the other when the female end was heated. It was then welded. Not ideal, not what I wanted but stuck with it. In it went with a 300tdi clutch plate and so far no problems. Managed to break a CV a few months ago. I'm still sceptical of its strength/durability tho. Another point was the tube the clutch release bearing slides on had to be welded to the plate on the front of the gearbox. I made a bolt on bracket to fit the difflock lever to the side of the disco extension case. Overall the gearbox was approx 30mm longer than the lt77. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_neutron Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 As i pointd out earlier the TD5 box has a different clutch spline to the tdi one, so it wouldnt fit streight on anyway.Whats the problem with moving the engine forwards? It surely makes far more sense to use the easily available 300tdi parts than trying to mess around with a short housing/shaft/etc, unless there is some major issue with moving the engine forward? I would like to keep the mounting brackets in a standard place as i'm planning a galv chassis in a couple of years so don't want to be welding onto a galv chassis. Also i've got a webasto heater fitted in the front of the engine bay and i don't want to loose it. If moving the engine forward, i would struggle for a good place to fit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_neutron Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 Have you used a 200TDi or 300TDi bellhousing?the 200TDi came with an LT77, and the input shaft on the LT77 is longer, so using an LT77 bellhousing on an R380 might well give the symptoms you describe? I plan to make a bell housing. It will be 30mm shorter than the standard 140mm 200tdi LT77 housing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 sorry that was aimed at the other chap that was talking about stripping clutch splines. I just dont see the point in going to to hassle of making a bellhousing, i'm having to make one for my V8 conversion and its certainly no trivial task... If i had the choice between a jig and lots of welding, and moving two brackets and some pipes i know which i'd be going for! You mentioned the galv chassis before, but as i said it simply means you need to get a galv chassis for a 300tdi rather than a 200tdi to save any messing around. The heater is a valid point, but i'm sure moving a heater is less hassle than rebuilding a gearbox with bespoke parts and fabricating your own bellhousing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_neutron Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 sorry that was aimed at the other chap that was talking about stripping clutch splines.I just dont see the point in going to to hassle of making a bellhousing, i'm having to make one for my V8 conversion and its certainly no trivial task... If i had the choice between a jig and lots of welding, and moving two brackets and some pipes i know which i'd be going for! You mentioned the galv chassis before, but as i said it simply means you need to get a galv chassis for a 300tdi rather than a 200tdi to save any messing around. The heater is a valid point, but i'm sure moving a heater is less hassle than rebuilding a gearbox with bespoke parts and fabricating your own bellhousing. Maybe .. But the list of things to do to move the engine forward is mounting up ... Exhaust extend Heater to move brackets to weld starter cable to replace And that was just a quick look at the job. Not loads of work but its a couple of days off the road which aint good Modding the box can all be done without taking the van off the road The gearbox will need to be stripped down anyway to overhaul it prior to its fit so fitting a new pinion at that stage isn't really a big ordeal. So all thats needed is to make a bell housing which i agree aint that easy but again it can all be done without taking the van off the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Thats it .. hardest bit is done .. I made a decision there's no hope for you now I'll try & find the thread I mentioned earlier. no luck couldn't find it after near 2 hours searching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 how do you plan to jig the two halves together? For mine, ive dismantled an old LT77 box, and i'm going to get a piece of alloy rod machined up to fit tightly inside the clutch housing that bolts on to hold the input shaft bearings, and machined to the same length as the proper input shaft with the end dia the same as the spigot bearing. That way i can attach my landrover bellhousing to it once its machined down, bolt the front half of the audi housing onto the audi block and push the LT77-jig into the end of the crank, probably with the engine on its side. That way the alloy rod will act to centralise the LT77's casing and therefore bellhousing around the crankshaft, and the Audi part will be bolted on with dowels as per normal. Tack the two halves together (possibly with some plate in between to take up the size difference) and then take it all apart and weld the thing up fully. Some pics here of the LT77 disassembly: http://www.lr90.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=196 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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