Water injection in TD5 - anyone done it?

[Cret]

Hi everyone

Being a fan of water injection (I use it on a performance car I have with good results), I was wondering whether it's a suitable thing to use on Turbodiesel engines and after a quick look on google I can see that yes people do it with diesels with the same benefits as petrol cars.

I've looked for info on people fitting it to diesel landies/discos and so far I've seen a couple of brief comments relating to 200tdis responding well to the addition of WI kit (better than the 300tdi for some reason - not sure why this would be? Different intercooler sizes perhaps?) but not found comments regarding anyone doing it on TD5s.

I can't see any reason so far why it would be a bad idea (I'm already aware of potential risks from a poorly setup/maintained system & solenoid failure etc), and as the car is currently off the road and I'm growing weary of the disco's 'performance', am giving serious consideration to installing this (as a test with a view to buying a second kit).

I noticed that Twisted Performance list a TD5 water injection kit as a new or coming soon product so I've emailed them to ask for more info in case that fits the bill but as yet have not received a reply from them.

Ultimately I'd like to add a big intercooler as well but can't afford that right now. There are pros & cons to both cooling methods, and I have experience of both, but believe that the two mods complement each other, especially if you're going to be increasing boost/fuelling etc. The important difference for me at the moment is that I can borrow my own kit from the car to test if it's worthwhile having WI fitted in the disco.

Has anyone done this on a TD5? If so, where's the best position & nozzle size/flow rate for the injector, and what sort of boost pressure would be a good place to activate it?

Be really interested to speak to people who have done this already (if anyone has?), or even from people who've used it on any other diesel vehicles to find out their experiences on this.

I just got a secondhand Dastek powerplug on Ebay and have heard mixed reports, but mainly good about them. I suspect that with the extra fuel this will chuck in (once I receive it and get it fitted) that the water injection will really help out!

On the Dastek side of things, I've heard that they can sometimes cause the engine light to come on. What's the cure for that? Do I have to take it to a tech to get the error removed or have a nanocom, or is there a free DIY means of resetting it or removing the error? I don't want to have errors that affect the car cropping up all the time, although it'd help me persuade the wife we need a nanocom.

I'd prefer a remap ideally but the chip was a good price and I can always sell it again once I raise a bit more money for a remap.

Cheers

Jim

[Aragorn]

To me, a WI kit is a bit like a sticking plaster.

If you need it there there is something wrong with the rest of the setup, ie insufficient intercooling, turbo running way out of its efficiency band etc.

I'd be buying a huge intercooler from ebay for ~£100 and nailing that on.

[Cret]

To me, a WI kit is a bit like a sticking plaster.

If you need it there there is something wrong with the rest of the setup, ie insufficient intercooling, turbo running way out of its efficiency band etc.

I'd be buying a huge intercooler from ebay for ~£100 and nailing that on.

There's a logic to your comment I agree. Unfortunately the same logic would therefore follow for any other mods you do like the intercooler you mentioned etc.

Eg "If you need it there there is something wrong with the rest of the setup, ie insufficient intercooling". The same stuff applies so why would you go for one thing but avoid the other? It doesn't make sense, and it seems that people have a big worry about water injection being some mysterious & sinister thing that's unproven technology or dodgy when it's been a well proven performance tweak since ww2!

The vehicle runs exactly how it's designed to so it doesn't need anything that personally I would consider a 'sticky plaster', the difference is that I don't 'need' it as you've described, I 'want' it as I know it can help give the disco some better performance especially with an increase in boost & juice. Sure you can see what I mean.

There are numerous reasons why it's better than a big intercooler though, with the minor downside that you have to top it up from time to time. I can live with that, and the kit is already in my garage so it's costing me nowt to try it.

Like I say I have experience of both on a turbocharged performance petrol engine and both work well but from experience water has much more benefit so while I can understand the basis for your comment I don't agree. If I could find a huge intercooler that fits for the money you mention I'd get one as well straight away! If you know of one from another vehicle that will fit without too much grief I'd be grateful to know.

Have you tried it and found it of no benefit on a diesel? I have to confess that I have no experience of fitting it to a diesel, but the principles are largely the same as for petrol so the same benefits should apply also.

Hope none of that sounds 'funny' as it's not meant to. Having been tinkering with water injection for a few years now with good results (I do my own mapping on the car and it allows me to safely run a higher state of tune on the maps) I know how good it can be, and I'm also used to a peculiar response from people at times when I mention it.

Would love to hear from people who've fitted it to a diesel landy though and I know I've seen the odd reference on one forum or another recently....

[BogMonster]

Water injection? Nah, you'll never get any power out of that

Ignoring any negative input, if you do get it to work it would be very interesting if you'd post up some details

You may find some of these interesting reading

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=34188

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=16617

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=32898

may be worth a wider search of the forum using Google - its better than our search function... use the following link

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q...mp;aq=f&oq=

[Cret]

Thanks for the input

I have actually read the thread on that first link the other day after some searching but not the other ones so will have a scan through them.

Will certainly pipe up once I get it plumbed in. The only bit I can't do myself is to weld a boss or two onto my egr replacement for the injector & switch. I've got a perfectly good welder but I don't think I can weld stainless with it so I'll have to dial in a favour from a pal for that one I think.....

[Aragorn]

Some ebay item numbers of large intercoolers:

270287967900

270311786151

I've never personally tried water injection, it just strikes me as something you should only use if your getting detonation, and only after you've exhausted all other methods of reducing detonation, for example reducing inlet charge temperatures, timing, fuelling etc.

Seen as its main purpose is to stop detonation, running it on a diesel engine doesnt really make any sense to me for power reasons as they run on the very principle your attempting to stop, especially one that's running a standard map rather that tuned to the moon.

Its a bit like putting Super Unleaded in a car thats not going to advance its timing enough to take advantage of the higher octane value, you can actually end up losing power.

[Cret]

Cheers for the links - will have a look at those.

it just strikes me as something you should only use ... after you've exhausted all other methods of reducing detonation, for example reducing inlet charge temperatures, timing, fuelling etc.

That's exactly what water injection will do, and do it very well indeed. Again, I'm not disagreeing with a lot of the comments you're making as there are a lot of valid points in one respect, but looking from another perspective you're almost confirming the reason why I'm going to do it in the first place. The chip will be altering fuelling, if not timing as well (not sure how 'clever' the dastek ones are - presumably not as good as a real remap though).

I think that Jimattril(sp?) mentioned on a thread of his that when his water injection fires up any smoke he gets goes straight away so surely that indicates a benefit as it means the fuel is being burnt instead of wasted as soot.

I could see more merit to your argument I think if I didn't have this kit sitting here already and was going to spend £400 on it or so instead of a big cooler. That's not the case though.

Seen as its main purpose is to stop detonation, running it on a diesel engine doesnt really make any sense to me for power reasons as they run on the very principle your attempting to stop, especially one that's running a standard map rather that tuned to the moon.

As I say - it won't be a standard map within the next few days. To me, the main point of water injection has always been to cool the intake charge whether on my car or for the disco now, and det reduction is a secondary benefit - it depends again on your objective and perspective I suppose. Interesting point though about that being how a diesel works and I'll readily admit I haven't thought of that, and do not know if that would be detrimental or not. If so, then it'd have to be weighed up against the pros.

Its a bit like putting Super Unleaded in a car thats not going to advance its timing enough to take advantage of the higher octane value, you can actually end up losing power.

Again, in one respect that's right but again, I'll mention the chip, boost increase, cooler intake charge etc.

I don't expect people to always agree with me about this stuff as I've seen so many times now on various forums I use that people don't really 'trust' the idea of water injection (not the best phrase but I'm sure you understand).

I'm happy discussing it with people like yourself and trying to reason why I like using it as it's a polite discussion rather than an argument - you'd be amazed how arsey some people can get!

I should say hello as well since I realised that I haven;t done yet! I keep forgetting I'm probably seen as a gobby know it all noob on here as I use loads of other forums but for some reason only just registered on here - cracking site.

I've previously had a 1990 200tdi 3dr disco (now abandoned in the sahara by its subsequent owner sadly!). Have also had a 1986 Rangie vogue, and a few Suzuki jeeps, all with various mods.

My other motoring interest is my 1989 Subaru Legacy RS, and I run the unofficial UK owners' club - UKLegacy.com for my sins.

I think for me the main thing will be 'proof of the pudding' as it were once I've tried it. Not quite sure how I can readily prove any positive results that I notice, but I'll certainly say how it feels once it's done.

Hope you see the angle I'm coming from though ie mainly that I already own this fancy kit (bought off a mate for £150 - he got rid as he lowered the state of tune on his car back to standard & had no more need) and I won't be using it on my Legacy for some time so it's not really a hassle for me to try it, no cost, and I already have experience of the benefits from using it.

Jim

[BogMonster]

Presumably water injection in a diesel also increases the effective compression ratio - if you stuff your intake charge up to 20:1 compression, then the proportion of that intake charge which is water is incompressible, so it effectively increases the compression of the rest of the intake charge doesn't it?

Don't turn the tap on too much then <kadonk> new conrods please

[Cret]

I'm honestly not sure. Is there any reason why it wouldn't also do this in a petrol engine given that (either diesel or petrol) you're chucking mist into the combustion chamber which then gets compressed with the charge? I'd guess it's exactly the same in that respect and I've certainly not heard of people throwing so much in that what you describe could be a risk.

In theory it could happen but in practise I think the amounts that most kits could flow through a miniscule nozzle in the time of a stroke just wouldn't allow it because you're dealing with a matter of ml/minute which is not a lot, and don't forget that there is in fact a lot of water vapour already going through with the air travelling through so a small extra amount of mist is insignificant I think in that context.

Now sometimes people cite that a 'risk' of water injection kits is that water can leak through when it's not meant to, and if that happens then yes, I think you could quite easily end up with a hydraulic'd bore and a bent rod or two, but I think a lot of kits include things like a check valve (my one has anyway) which means the pressure has to be over 3 bar or something before it gets through to the injector so there's no chance of it just dribbling through. Many also use solenoids and have warning lights for failure etc so they're pretty safe in that respect. Other risks with it are if you rely on having it there to protect against detonation with extreme states of tune. In most cases people aren't pushing things quite that far anyway so it's not so much a hazard (in the short term at least). Again there are easy means of protecting against this by level sensors in your water/methanol tank (often it's the screenwash tank used), and even sensors to detect if there is flow in the pipe that supplies the injector.

Going back to an earlier comment of Aragorn's again (now I've thought on it a bit more), you commented that an effect of water injection is to reduce the risk of detonation and that this would be counter productive since that's the whole principle on how a diesel works. I don't think that's actually the case since detonation is the term used for an uncontrolled and premature flame front in the combustion chamber, ie where the fuel/air mix ignites before it's meant to and when the piston is in the wrong position, generally still moving up the bore.

Diesels don't quite work like this as far as I'm aware (I'll readily admit my knowledge of diesels & diesel tuning is not as good as with petrol engines!) since they obviously have a carefully timed burn just as per any engine that's managed in one form or another, and the fuel ignites from a predetermined & carefully designed combination of heat/compression. Adding water mist to this slows the combustion down slightly but this allows a more efficient burn anyway from adding in oxygen and increasing the effective octane so you get better combustion. That's not stuff I've obviously figured out or tested scientifically myself of course, but is stuff that has been proven I think a lot of times over the long period of time that this technique has been around (maybe 70 or 80 years).

I know people in the UK seem very skeptical about it still but in other countries it's a lot more commonly used & accepted.

Ultimately it makes no odds to me of course whether others want to try it or not except for the fact it reduces the number of people I can compare notes with. I'm more than happy to try and argue its corner though in terms of why it can & generally does give some good benefits to using it, if nothing else just because I'm interested in the subject and I like a bit of a pow-wow!

[Aragorn]

The whole idea of using the water is to reduce detonation...

I just dont get the point in using it in a derv.

In a petrol, your mixing the fuel and air together then compressing it. You want it to burn when your spark plug fires and you want it to burn in a controlled manner. If the temperature or compression ratio is too high, it will either auto-ignite, or it will combust far too quickly once the spark does fire, causing engine damage.

In a derv however, theres no fuel in the inlet, the fuel is injected into the cylinder AFTER the compression has occured and you WANT it to auto-ignite. By adding water to the intake charge you will achieve two things. You will displace some of the air with water, meaning there is less air in the cylinder, and you will reduce the temperature of the air in the cylinder after compression. This might be good for emissions (its quite similar to EGR in that principle) however its not going to help make more power.

To get more power you need to fit more air into the cylinder. On a petrol engine, you'd turn up the boost (and fuel) to levels that might be otherwise dangerous, and then add water to keep it in control. In your case your not increasing the boost pressure any more though, so if you were to compare the chipped derv with and without water, you would find that with water will make less power, as you have the same amount of air in the cylinder, but the air has a high water content which dampens the combustion.

[wallopadonkey]

my tuppence worth

i was always under the impression all cars run better in damp conditions because the damp air is more dense there fore more air into the combustion chamber it is the case

is you add water spray to the fuel mixture it will keep the temperature of the extra fuel air lower so not causing more problems surely whilst making it more dense then letting in more fuel and air after all a derv engine with out a governor will run and run until it dies as it needs fuel to get more power

cheers

dave

[Cret]

The whole idea of using the water is to reduce detonation...

But I've tried to explain a few times now that this is not the 'whole idea', and that this comes down to your objective & aim in fitting it.

I don't see how you can flatly state that "the whole idea of water injection is to reduce detonation" when that's only one aspect of it. Granted it's one of the main two (other being cooling) but the fact is that the 'whole idea' is down to the intention of the person fitting it and in this case as I've already described it's as a case of cooling and adding in extra oxygen. That's what burns with the fuel, and you're suggesting that by adding water vapour you're displacing this, whereas the opposite is true and you're actually adding more by the chemical reaction that goes on. It's been well proven over the years so I'm not sure why you're saying the opposite is true.

By adding water to the intake charge you will reduce the temperature of the air in the cylinder after compression. This might be good for emissions (its quite similar to EGR in that principle) however its not going to help make more power.

Fraid I just can't understand the logic you're using there. I want to cool the air that has been compressed by the turbo because as we know, compressing a gas heats it up. The intercooler cools this air to a certain extent, but this can be easily improved on by adding a bigger one. You've said that yourself, yet here you're saying that cooling this hot compressed gas does not help power so it's a contradiction that's not true otherwise you wouldn't have an intercooler on these engines at all, or have a benefit to fitting a bigger one.

Adding water injection does the exact same effect in this respect as fitting a bigger intercooler because it cools the compressed air from the turbo. That's the real basics of it.

A vast number of people have done this & measured intake temperatures before & after the addition of water vapour which has had dramatic cooling effects giving the exact same benefit as a big intercooler. I don't see how you can argue this. This stuff has been proven to give more power on dynos, and I've seen plenty of posts from landrover owners who've fitted an uprated cooler but not done other changes (ie no remap/no extra boost) and have noticed an increase in performance.

To get more power you need to fit more air into the cylinder.

Correct, that's to get more oxygen in to burn with the fuel. Cooler air is more dense and contains more oxygen and as I've mentioned with water vapour you don't displace that, you increase it further.

In your case your not increasing the boost pressure any more though

Yes I am. I mentioned in my earlier post that I've got the boost module from TD5alive, and will be increasing boost to go with the increased fuelling from the chip if after I've monitored the chip's effects and the boost remains as it was. My first post mentioned 'especially if you're going to be increasing boost/fuelling etc' and this is exactly what I'm doing.

you would find that with water will make less power, as you have the same amount of air in the cylinder, but the air has a high water content which dampens the combustion.

You mentioned yourself in your post that you'd be 'displacing air' by adding water:

You will displace some of the air with water, meaning there is less air in the cylinder

but now in the same post you've said there would be the same amount?

The air even without adding in extra water has a lot of humidity/water vapour and this combusts just fine. Yes it does dampen the mix, but it aids the combustion itself.

You're arguing that the cooling effect of intercoolers is a waste of time because you've stated clearly that cooling intake air after it's compressed does not assist power but yet you've also said that fitting a big cooler is the thing to do - I don't understand this contradiction.

Also you're saying that the water vapor in the intake air makes combustion worse, but to disprove this theory all you have to do is go for a spirited drive on a cold damp day or when it's misty (as that's basically doing what water injection does - ie adding water vapour) and it makes a very obvious improvement to every single turbo charged vehicle I've had (2 diesel and 4 petrol). There's a big hill I have to go up every day on the drive home from work & with three people in the car I have to change down to 4th every time with the exception of when it's cold/misty and I can get up in fifth.

No worries if you don't agree with that, but I can't really argue it any better than that as I'm not a scientist that's got lab facilities to give you graphs to prove all the above, but it's all known to be true, and purely on the cold air & extra oxygen basis I think that's the bottom line anyway. Aside from anything else you seem to have agreed it's useful on a non standard engine & that's exactly what mine will be with the chip and boost increase.

Certainly not averse to discussing it further as it's got pretty interesting but I'm not sure what I can add to the above so we'll probably have to agree to disagree I suspect. No worries if that's the case.

Like I say, I think the proof of the pudding will be in the eating as it were, so once I can get it lashed on I'll gladly report on whether it helps or not.

On the road results are what really matters rather than scientific theories after all.

[Cret]

my tuppence worth

i was always under the impression all cars run better in damp conditions because the damp air is more dense there fore more air into the combustion chamber

Exactly right Dave.

it is the case

is you add water spray to the fuel mixture it will keep the temperature of the extra fuel air lower so not causing more problems surely whilst making it more dense then letting in more fuel and air after all a derv engine with out a governor will run and run until it dies as it needs fuel to get more power

cheers

dave

Really sorry mate but I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying in the rest of the message. Sorry if I'm being stupid.

[Cret]

By the way Aragorn - cheers for the links to those intercoolers.

The first of the two is very very similar size & shape to what I already have on my legacy, and I'd wondered if that sort of dimension might be possible to fit without a nightmare fitting job on the disco.

As I'm currently rebuilding the legacy engine at the moment I'm tempted to whip the cooler out and see if one like this would be do-able. Don't suppose you know anyone that has fitted one like this do you?

The second one looks interesting too - think the pipe outlets are slightly better faced than the first one for the disco from how I remember the disco ones are orientated....

[Aragorn]

I guess what i'm a bit skeptical of is if its going to cool the air enough in the inlet to actually get an appreciable amount of extra air into the cylinders.

I would imagine most of the cooling action happens in the cylinder, when the water vaporises, and the liquid>gas conversion can absorb a lot of energy, which is good for controlling Det, but not for getting more air in, because the intake valves are shut when thats happening.

This is why its primarily an anti-det method.

Why not give it a go and let us know how it goes?

Edit: dont know anyone personally thats used the coolers on a disco, but i'm sure it shouldnt be too hard to install and pipe up.

[Cret]

That's the plan chief

I see what you're saying but it doesn't work by 'sucking' more air in if that's what you mean. As you rightly say it couldn't as the valves would be shut probably.

As I understand it oxygen is released from the water mist as a chemical reaction from part of the combustion process.

The cooling is in two parts, part of it is just as you've described by the water droplets absorbing heat, but a big part of the cooling is the actual gas before it reaches the cylinder anyway.

It's a very common thing that people using WI add a charge temperature probe in the intake/manifold (basically somewhere downstream of the injector, but before the cylinder) to monitor the reduction in the inlet air/gas/charge temps with/without the water. I've seen the results that a lot of people have posted up from these tests a lot over the last few years that I've been looking into & using this technique. The results can be quite astounding at times, and at other times - say you have a really effective intercooler to begin with - it only makes a slight difference as you can only cool this air so much!!

What I'm hoping is that because I've seen so many people saying that adding a monster cooler on its own has given gains, that this is a pretty good starting point for water giving the same sort of improvements. Hope that makes sense.

Anyway - it's academic until I can get my EGR replacement pipe modified to get the injector & pressure switch added in so I can mount the kit. An EGR gauge would be nice but I'm pretty skint after just buying this dastek so it'll have to wait unfortunately.

Soon as this is on the go though I shall be updating you on the tests as I have a couple of size injectors, and a variable pressure switch for when it kicks in.

Nice to be able to discuss things on here that people may not agree with without it just turning into a slanging match like I've seen on a lot of other sites.

*edit meself* if I get the chance to test fit the 'hybrid' (brand) cooler I've got on the legacy then I'll also post up results/pics etc. I'd really LOVE to get a plug & play one from one of the tuners but no way I can afford it sadly!

[66gaza]

Cret do you mean an egt gauge? water injection cools the intake charge which makes it more dense, exactly the same as an intercooler. Shouldn't be relied on though as it may have ran out when required and doing that too many times will if EGTs are too high require a new exhaust manifold at best. I agree with everything you are saying, alot of people use petrol tuning vocabulary on diesels and it does not apply, detonation and lean being two things. For every degree you can drop the intake charge you will drop the EGT the same amount, water injection is used alot in the states in diesel engines mainly in drag and sled pulling usually its washer fluid in various strengths for more power. Also used by some to keep egts under control whilst towing up some of the long grades. I personally think a bigger intercooler is the first step but after that then this is a good choice. BTW are you fitting a bigger intercooler? You must have the patience of a saint to do all that typing as just typing this has tested mine. Good luck, the EGT gauge is a must.

Gaza

[66gaza]

I think this is the same as the 1st ebay item listed fitted to a 110. This is the thread on ORRP.com where its from http://www.orrp.com/smf/index.php?topic=50194.0 . Its owner is GMC62LANDY who may be a member here too. As you can see he has had to go through the innerwings an a defender, I don't know if you have more room in a disco. Please keep us informed. The pic I want to upload is a bmp and this site wont let me upload it. I am at work so can't convert it but its on the thread I have linked anyway.

Gaza

[Cret]

Thanks Gaza - sorry yes I did mean EGT - no idea why I wrote EGR but my brain was a bit fried after a boiling hot day at work and lots of typing.

I'd like an EGT gauge anyway to see whether the chip is safe or not, but it would be ace to note the difference with water.

I have seen it written many times that for each degree you drop the intake temperature you can be looking at 1bhp increase but I don't see how people can state that because it'd vary from one make of engine to the next and probably vary with the scale of temps involved.

Washer tanks are usually used for two reasons - one because of convenience, they're there already so you don't have to find space for another tank or the hassle of fitting it. Two because screenwash is often around 45% methanol and this is recommended to mix in with water for injection anyway. It's not necessary but it's meant to give more benefit than water alone.

As far as the tank running out etc, yes that's a potential risk so a huge intercooler is defo the better option for 'no hassle' but like I mentioned in an earlier post there's all sorts of monitoring goodies to prevent harm from running out of water, and in many cases people aren't really relying on the water but are using it as a plus. Eg using it to specifically cool the charge rather than with the objective of reducing det.

I've got a float switch for my tank so it tells me when the water gets low, and also a light to say when the system is in use. What I haven't got however is a flow monitor so it could block for instance without me knowing. I might get one though.

If I have an EGT gauge that wouldn't matter as a blockage would quickly cause an increased reading on that.

I've only got standard intercooler on the TD5 but have a huge one on my legacy. I might test fit it to see if I could make one fit the disco as described above. If I can do it'll save me about £300 on the cost of buying a disco specific one (or not, since I can't afford one anyway). Like I say I know how good a big cooler is so I want one, but I also want to add this kit.

Looking at your link, that cooler looks VERY much like the one on my car but I'm not sure how easily if at all it could be added to the TD5 disco. If I get a chance I'll try the one from the car to see....

Have attached a pic of one the same as mine being fitted, and also a pic of how it looks on my car - it's not too "in your face" like some of them can be.

I've realised that I can temporarily add in my EGR valve while I get the pipe fitted with a boss for the injector so no worries about not being able to use the car.

As for typing - I can type pretty fast and if I'm interested in a geeky tech subject I can rattle on for ages.

[Cret]

Not especially a useful update but anyway...

Got the dastek in & fitted and I'm not sure I like it. The car is smoother and the boost is more steady.

Top end if you floor the pedal seems not bad once it's revving a lot, but the bottom end seems to be worse.

It may not be, and might be better - could just be as it's so different.

Anyway, I've got the correct tap for the injector thread, and some smalll bits of stainless to use as bosses to weld onto the EGR replacement pipe.

Once that's done and they're tapped I can install the kit.

Have also invested in an EGT gauge as I got one really cheap on ebay.

Can anyone advise where the location of choice is for installing the probe for one of these on a TD5?

Ta

Jim

[BogMonster]

Into the exhaust manifold is always best but given the manifolds apparently crack at the best of times when you wind up the power, I'm not sure about the wisdom of drilling more holes in it

[Cret]

I've read a few comments now about them warping under tuned conditions but didn't realise they cracked.

I thought it was fairly common that people tuning TD5s added an EGT gauge?

If not then I can always add it to the car once the engine is back in that as it'd be a handy extra for my mapping.

[BogMonster]

Sorry maybe they warp not crack - I know there are manifold issues anyway...

[Cret]

I wasn't being facetious by the way in case you thought that!

I'm a noob on here so I have to be nice by default.

[David Sparkes]

Never having worked on a TD5 I can't give you chapter and verse, but I've read a little, and some of it has stuck.

For specific TD5 advice, try TD5 Alive. http://www.td5alive.com/

Bell Auto Services http://www.bellautoservices.co.uk/ or http://bell-auto-services.co.uk/ is another possible source.

(Two addresses because the front pages are different. They appear to be the same firm).

Jeremy Fearn has been tuning diesels since before these guys started, and is still active in competition. I don't know what he does re TD5 engines, so you will have to ask. His advertising profile isn't as high as the others, but he does have a 4WD Rolling Road installed. (I don't know about the others). http://www.jeremyjfearn.co.uk/

My understanding is that the TD5 manifolds crack because a design change meant they could not flex enough to accomadate the expansion forces due to heat. It might have been that webs were added to make them stiffer, which worked, but the resultant basic structure couldn't then withstand the internal stresses.

You might also have to pay attention to how tightly the manifold fits over the studs. Again (if I'm correct), space is needed to accomodate movement.

A targetted Google search on something like 'TD5 +Manifold crack' might return relevant results.

The basic principle re installing the EGT probe is to have the tip in a position where it gets wiped by each slug of hot exhaust gas from every cylinder. This often means just before the turbo. Try to visualise the flow of each slug, remember most of the slug will flow round the outside of a curve, so you want to sample that, but without putting a damn great obstruction in the way.

If there is a big thick web to hold the studs that hold the turbo on, then that might be good. Or just the manifold side of that web.

While lots of people fit EGT gauges, myself included, I'm not sure many users actually know the difference between a good and a bad reading. For instance, most (including me) only fit them to a modified engine, so have no comparison to make to a standard engine. Also, engine designs differ (amazingly), so what constitutes a safe reading on one may be a disaster reading on another.

The people who might know best are those in engine test / development labs, but those who work there now weren't around when the TD5 was being developed, or if they were, have forgotten all about it, being more concerned with the engines of today and tomorrow.

I know you are using a WI kit 'from stock', but whose make is it?

Good Luck.