yota vs rover strength

[yella 90]

due to wanting bigger and stronger axles than land rover,

ive got my mittens on some yota 80 series axles, with front and rear leccy lockers.

my question is, exactly haw strong are they compared to my ashcroft axles that are currently under the landy ?

ill be putting in longfield stuff anyhows but i was curious as to how strong they are in comparison ?

im aware that the front diff is directional and can suffer in reverse, but my landy only has a mild tune td5 under the bonnet with a auto, so its by no were near as powerful as the stock or tweaked yota beasts under the bonnet

dan

[Ex Member]

The R&P design is a lot stronger. Stock halfshafts and CV joints are about the same as the stock Rover stuff. Once you have the Longfields in there you will be around 50% stronger than the Ashcroftted Rover axles you have now.

[Bush65]

With regard to the front strength, this can be greatly improved by replacing the crush sleeve between pinion bearings with solid spacers.

In reverse, the reverse cut r&p is loading the pinion bearing through the crush sleeve, which allows the pinion to misalign with the ring gear.

80 series half shafts and cv's are larger in diameter than rover.

[bill van snorkle]

With regard to the front strength, this can be greatly improved by replacing the crush sleeve between pinion bearings with solid spacers.

In reverse, the reverse cut r&p is loading the pinion bearing through the crush sleeve, which allows the pinion to misalign with the ring gear.

I would like to challenge the theory of solid spacers John if i may.Yes, another long winded post by me on a subject that very few are interested in, but never the less.

I was lying in bed this morning waiting for the sun to come up, and instead of the usual Tottie of the Week, my mind wandered on to the subject of pinion bearing spacers! I have fitted them to various differentials in the past and know solid spacers are often used when building performance differentials,but I never really could see that they offer any advantage what so ever.

You see,to my mind the purpose of a bearing spacer is simply that,to keep both inner and outer opposing taper roller bearings correctly spaced and the preload constant, to prevent bearing seizure or excessive endfloat.When a conventional differential is in drive mode, end thrust pushes the large (inner )pinion bearing cone hard up against its cup.There is no force trying to push the small(outer) pinion bearing cone against its cup other than the original preload setting.Similarly in reverse or coast mode.Endthrust trys to pull the pinion deeper in to mesh with the crownwheel.This force is resisted by the outer pinion bearing cone pushing hard against its cup. There are side thrust loads that convert to endthrust due to the taper of the bearings trying to force the bearings further apart, a force the spacer has no influence over anyway, but no additional end thrust load is applied to the inner pinion bearing.In other words there are no forces being applied that are trying to squeeze the inner and outer pinion bearings closer together, which is what the spacer is supposed to resist.The only diffs I know of that apply end thrust to both pinion bearings simultaneousely are some tandem drive truck diffs with helical power divider gears bolted on to the pinion.Some 1940's50's Ford diffs didn't even have spacers, and if torquing the pinion nut correctly when setting up the diff functioned just as well as diffs with spacers.

Bill.

[Bush65]

I would like to challenge the theory of solid spacers John if i may.Yes, another long winded post by me on a subject that very few are interested in, but never the less.

I was lying in bed this morning waiting for the sun to come up, and instead of the usual Tottie of the Week, my mind wandered on to the subject of pinion bearing spacers! I have fitted them to various differentials in the past and know solid spacers are often used when building performance differentials,but I never really could see that they offer any advantage what so ever.

You see,to my mind the purpose of a bearing spacer is simply that,to keep both inner and outer opposing taper roller bearings correctly spaced and the preload constant, to prevent bearing seizure or excessive endfloat.When a conventional differential is in drive mode, end thrust pushes the large (inner )pinion bearing cone hard up against its cup.There is no force trying to push the small(outer) pinion bearing cone against its cup other than the original preload setting.Similarly in reverse or coast mode.Endthrust trys to pull the pinion deeper in to mesh with the crownwheel.This force is resisted by the outer pinion bearing cone pushing hard against its cup. There are side thrust loads that convert to endthrust due to the taper of the bearings trying to force the bearings further apart, a force the spacer has no influence over anyway, but no additional end thrust load is applied to the inner pinion bearing.In other words there are no forces being applied that are trying to squeeze the inner and outer pinion bearings closer together, which is what the spacer is supposed to resist.The only diffs I know of that apply end thrust to both pinion bearings simultaneousely are some tandem drive truck diffs with helical power divider gears bolted on to the pinion.Some 1940's50's Ford diffs didn't even have spacers, and if torquing the pinion nut correctly when setting up the diff functioned just as well as diffs with spacers.

Bill.

As always Bill, you make a lot of sense and I agree with you description.

I was going by reports from others who have more experience with Toyota diffs than I have.

[plasticbadger]

Stock halfshafts and CV joints are about the same as the stock Rover stuff.

Not in my experience, I ran completely standard 80 series axles with 37" Super Swampers for 2 years with no problems. Before that I was running 32" tyres on standard rover axles and broke numerous diffs, shafts, CVs - so my driving style isn't gentle!

I've been in a challenge section with a fully Ashcrofted 35" tyred rover when it broke the rear R&P trying to follow me who made it through without an issue on the standard Toyota stuff.

I would suggest running the axles stock and adding Lonfield CVs if you ever have a breakage. The locker mechainisms can be a pain, water ingress and burnt out motors seem to be the problem. For full challenge use it may be better long term to develop an air or mechanical operator - I think RogueVogue on here is working on something.

[roguevogue]

Are we covering this again?!

[Michele]

For full challenge use it may be better long term to develop an air or mechanical operator - I think RogueVogue on here is working on something.

Or, if you don't want to squeeze your brain, just buy an aftermarket, I can't remember the link to the supplier right now though...!

Bill!

No comment!!

[bill van snorkle]

Not in my experience, I ran completely standard 80 series axles with 37" Super Swampers for 2 years with no problems. Before that I was running 32" tyres on standard rover axles and broke numerous diffs, shafts, CVs - so my driving style isn't gentle!

I've been in a challenge section with a fully Ashcrofted 35" tyred rover when it broke the rear R&P trying to follow me who made it through without an issue on the standard Toyota stuff.

I would suggest running the axles stock and adding Lonfield CVs if you ever have a breakage. The locker mechainisms can be a pain, water ingress and burnt out motors seem to be the problem. For full challenge use it may be better long term to develop an air or mechanical operator - I think RogueVogue on here is working on something.

Red90 was refering to 40-60 series CV joints which are identical in size to AEU2522 landRover joints,although they have a less brittle heat treatment but wear out quicker

on constant 4wd vehicles.The Toyota halfshafts are larger at the diff end but slightly smaller at the CV joint end than Rovers but breakage is rare. 80 series have larger diameter cv joints again.

The answer to the question of whether Toyota mechanical components are stronger and better engineered should be well known by now. Although Toyota have been making LandCruisers for almost as long as LandRovers have been around, it is almost as if from the beginning Toyota engineers got hold of a series 2a LandRover and analysed it by repeatedly breaking it and fixing it whilst studying where the Rover nongs had got it wrong, because in my experience mainly with 40 to 60 series vehicles they have very few weaknesses and comparing every mechanical and structural component from the wheel rims to the top of the rocker cover it is clear IMO that they have been much more thoroughly engineered than LandRovers.

Bill.

[will_warne]

Red90 was refering to 40-60 series CV joints which are identical in size to AEU2522 landRover joints,although they have a less brittle heat treatment but wear out quicker

on constant 4wd vehicles.The Toyota halfshafts are larger at the diff end but slightly smaller at the CV joint end than Rovers but breakage is rare. 80 series have larger diameter cv joints again.

The answer to the question of whether Toyota mechanical components are stronger and better engineered should be well known by now. Although Toyota have been making LandCruisers for almost as long as LandRovers have been around, it is almost as if from the beginning Toyota engineers got hold of a series 2a LandRover and analysed it by repeatedly breaking it and fixing it whilst studying where the Rover nongs had got it wrong, because in my experience mainly with 40 to 60 series vehicles they have very few weaknesses and comparing every mechanical and structural component from the wheel rims to the top of the rocker cover it is clear IMO that they have been much more thoroughly engineered than LandRovers.

Bill.

You mean Land Rovers are engineered???

Bill, interesting post re the crush sleeves. What would then be the reason for fitting solid sleeves? Could it be a misconseption based on failures of a) diffs with worn pinion bearings or b) incorrectly setup diffs?

[callum]

The locker mechainisms can be a pain, water ingress and burnt out motors seem to be the problem. For full challenge use it may be better long term to develop an air or mechanical operator - I think RogueVogue on here is working on something.

need to go a huntin' for some 62 series axles with cable lockers. although to be honest if you find them, there's alot to be said for using the whole axle assemblies as you'll get a 9" diff at the front end too. large as the 80 cv's are, you unfortunately have a weak link in the middle and its currently easier to get better cv's for a 60 series than it is to toughen up the diff of an 80.

[bill van snorkle]

You mean Land Rovers are engineered???

Bill, interesting post re the crush sleeves. What would then be the reason for fitting solid sleeves? Could it be a misconseption based on failures of a) diffs with worn pinion bearings or b) incorrectly setup diffs?

Really can't answer that for certain Will.But if you have ever tried to set up the pinion bearing preload on a Salisbury diff with a new crush sleeve, (I no longer have the strength to do it with conventional tools)You'd have to say that solid spacers are much easier, if a little more fiddly to fit.

bill.

[Ex Member]

Not in my experience, I ran completely standard 80 series axles with 37" Super Swampers for 2 years with no problems.

I used to be in a club that was around 50% 80 series cruisers (I used to live in Australia). The front axle failures, on stock tyres, were very common. Almost all of the on trip failures in that club were Toyotas. I have no illusions that they are designed any better than anything else. When I say stock are around the same strength, I really meant the 80 series stuff is +-30% stronger than stock Rover stuff. In other words, it is ALL carp for any hard use.......

One guy in the club with a 75 series on 37s did two front axles, one rear, a gearbox and transfer case all within a 12 month period. He eventually gave up trying to make it strong enough and changed to a Patrol to build up. Most of the serious guys seemed to be moving to Patrols because they felt the newer front axles were too weak.

[will_warne]

Really can't answer that for certain Will.But if you have ever tried to set up the pinion bearing preload on a Salisbury diff with a new crush sleeve, (I no longer have the strength to do it with conventional tools)You'd have to say that solid spacers are much easier, if a little more fiddly to fit.

bill.

Bill, no, I haven't had the pleasure of doing a Salisbury but I've got several friend's who've told me how much 'fun' they had doing them!!