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Setting 300tdi timing


JST

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Well things are still not good.

10k mile 2.8tgv auto

Following on from these posts latest pulleys and Heavy Smoking

i now have a belt thats doesnt run off the front, its has the lastest tensioner and idler.

Symptons are black smoke on startup and black smoke accelerating no load.

Timing has been setup with crank woodruff key vertical (lined up with arrow on casting), correct timing pin in the FIP.

With the belt fitted the CAM is slightly anticlockwise of the mark on the casing (it lines up with the shoulder of the sprocket tooth that the mark is on) rather than the high point of the sprocket tooth ie - very close but not quite right.

FIP timing has been set so the pin is free to come out when crank pulley/woodruff key is vertical.

in other words i believe all set as it should be less the CAM which is slightly out anticlockwise. You cant correct the cam as its position is determined by the toothed belt in relation to the crank. the cam sprocket is not slotted so once the belt is on with tension in it you cant alter the cam to crank relationship. you can opnly alter pump to cam/crank relationship.

We have tried the FIP at all permutations of its setting - ie pump tight against the pin clockwise and anticlockwise and intervals inbetween,

I have had several 'fresh sets of eyes' look at the problem as am still not getting anywhere.

So anyone have any other ideas that could be tried?

i have followed the procedure of a belt change as per haynes.

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Well things are still not good.

10k mile 2.8tgv auto

Following on from these posts latest pulleys and Heavy Smoking

i now have a belt thats doesnt run off the front, its has the lastest tensioner and idler.

Symptons are black smoke on startup and black smoke accelerating no load.

Timing has been setup with crank woodruff key vertical (lined up with arrow on casting), correct timing pin in the FIP.

With the belt fitted the CAM is slightly anticlockwise of the mark on the casing (it lines up with the shoulder of the sprocket tooth that the mark is on) rather than the high point of the sprocket tooth ie - very close but not quite right.

FIP timing has been set so the pin is free to come out when crank pulley/woodruff key is vertical.

in other words i believe all set as it should be less the CAM which is slightly out anticlockwise. You cant correct the cam as its position is determined by the toothed belt in relation to the crank. the cam sprocket is not slotted so once the belt is on with tension in it you cant alter the cam to crank relationship. you can opnly alter pump to cam/crank relationship.

We have tried the FIP at all permutations of its setting - ie pump tight against the pin clockwise and anticlockwise and intervals inbetween,

I have had several 'fresh sets of eyes' look at the problem as am still not getting anywhere.

So anyone have any other ideas that could be tried?

i have followed the procedure of a belt change as per haynes.

I have been there myself, and it is a bit confusing. When you say woodruff key vertical, is it exactly vertical, because it can be hard to determine. Not sure what is the right procedure here, but I put a small level on it and it was easy a few degrees out from what I thought was reasonable. also, when rotating the pump and the cam, they have a position where they are in rest, which is not quite were the timingmarks are. Anyway, I am not solving your problem here.

I would move it a teeth and see what happens. It does actually run fine with the cover off, so you can faff with it for a bit without doing to much work.

Daan

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I have been there myself, and it is a bit confusing. When you say woodruff key vertical, is it exactly vertical, because it can be hard to determine. Not sure what is the right procedure here, but I put a small level on it and it was easy a few degrees out from what I thought was reasonable. also, when rotating the pump and the cam, they have a position where they are in rest, which is not quite were the timingmarks are. Anyway, I am not solving your problem here.

I would move it a teeth and see what happens. It does actually run fine with the cover off, so you can faff with it for a bit without doing to much work.

Daan

we have tried it a tooth fwd and back with the FIP at each limit on each of those too.

she has been dry run (cover off) quite a few times now - maybe 40 odd.

Woodruff key is lining up with the arrow on the casing so i am presuming thats how it should be.

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fitting the belt, resetting the cam postion with the belt fitted, then remove the belt, reset the crank

when you then do the next stage the belt wont line up with the cam teeth so you have to rotate the cam to get it to fit!

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Maybe I am missing something here, but aren't you supposed to undo the bolts on the IP pulley while tensioning the belt? I suspect that if you line up the cam with it's marks, slacken off the IP pulley bolts and tension the belt then the teeth will line up again with belt and the tensioner will effectively pull the belt back as tension is applied.

I certainly remember doing a Celia cam belt and having to have the crank a little anticlockwise of the timing mark and as the belt was tensioned up all came back into line.

I may not have explained this very well, so feel free to ask what the chuff I am talking about :D

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I wouldn't worry about the cam being on the shoulder rather than the centre.

How does it sound?

It will sound quiet if FIP timing too retarded, and knock horribly if too advanced. Each will be accompanied by horrendous grey/white smoking.

It sounds to me like the smoking problem may be related to something else. Leaking injector maybe? Pump overfuelling?

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Maybe I am missing something here, but aren't you supposed to undo the bolts on the IP pulley while tensioning the belt?

yep thats what we have been doing, tension the belt with the three bolts loose, tighten the tensioner bolt then do up the bolts to lock the FIP then remove the locking pin. cam is out by a shoulder when FIP and crank are correct.

still runs with black smoke

sounds as it always has

i dont think its anything else as it ran smokeless prior to the belt being touched.

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Probably the FIP is just a tiny little bit out. I thought you have answered your question yourself before:

"well it would appear to be the timing after all. despite using a proper timing pin in the FIP there is a small amount of movement when the FIP is locked to the rear timing case, not alot - a midges foreskin worth was the description used! so with the 3 pulley bolts undone the FIP was rotated the aforemention amount and now she runs sweet"

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yep thats what we have been doing, tension the belt with the three bolts loose, tighten the tensioner bolt then do up the bolts to lock the FIP then remove the locking pin. cam is out by a shoulder when FIP and crank are correct.

& rotate the engine [without starting it] 2 full turns & recheck timing.

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IMO, using the woddruff key is not the proper way to set the timing.

Doesn't the HS 2.8 + auto box you have have the same timing slot as the 300 tdi auto to use timing pin?

I remember the woodruff key on my engine wasn't quite lined up after I set the timing pin.

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IMO, using the woddruff key is not the proper way to set the timing.

Doesn't the HS 2.8 + auto box you have have the same timing slot as the 300 tdi auto to use timing pin?

I remember the woodruff key on my engine wasn't quite lined up after I set the timing pin.

James -

I have a timing pin set here if you need to use one.

Timing mark should be as above - the slot in the flywheel. Last 300 I did (last week) had the woodruff key slightly out but the flywheel mark was spot on.

Matt

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You said the belts were different widths (one 30mm and one 32mm), are they the same length/number of teeth?

32 was after it had been worn down and that was the first replacement belt from M&D. new belts are the same length/no of teeth/thickness etc etc

Probably the FIP is just a tiny little bit out. I thought you have answered your question yourself before:

"well it would appear to be the timing after all. despite using a proper timing pin in the FIP there is a small amount of movement when the FIP is locked to the rear timing case, not alot - a midges foreskin worth was the description used! so with the 3 pulley bolts undone the FIP was rotated the aforemention amount and now she runs sweet"

correct it was sorted but that was on a belt that walked off, since putting a 2nd new belt on that doesnt walk off i cant get it right again

& rotate the engine [without starting it] 2 full turns & recheck timing.

yep done that

IMO, using the woddruff key is not the proper way to set the timing.

Doesn't the HS 2.8 + auto box you have have the same timing slot as the 300 tdi auto to use timing pin?

I remember the woodruff key on my engine wasn't quite lined up after I set the timing pin.

i agree but as such there is no hole that i can find by removing the bell housing plate according to RAVE, and various other guides for ATs, waiting for Dave to confirm.

James -

I have a timing pin set here if you need to use one.

Timing mark should be as above - the slot in the flywheel. Last 300 I did (last week) had the woodruff key slightly out but the flywheel mark was spot on.

Matt

i have the proper kits here - but thank you anyway Matt.

James …………time to get back to basics………. forget all the original belt settings and set the true mechanical timing positions of the crank, cam, & FIP ……. then fit the belt

Ian - yep have done that as best as can do with the woodruff key for the crank, havent got to the pull and injector yet to check TDC.

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Hi All, I have a series II Discovery 2.5 turbo diesel and am wondering at what mileage or when should the timing belt be checked or changed or is there one in a diesel engine. Probably a stupid question

As your Discovery 2 is a Td5 engine, it uses a timing chain which doesn't need replacing.

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  • 11 years later...

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