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Going up from Series to R380 probably


RobotMan

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I'm rebuilding my 1961 Series II 88" once again.

It is very much a truck of all trades getting used for daily driver to occasional winch challenge. As it stands I am more than happy with the performance (well I was when I had my Ashcroft Hi-Ratio box in) on and off road but of course the reliability isn't there for the abuse I give it.

At present we have 200Tdi, pegged ARB in the back with KAM shafts, TrueTrac in the front, 235/85-16 Special Tracks, 6 year old galvy chassis and a North of road internal cage.

I plan on changing the gearbox to hopefully an R380 but maybe an LT77. I will also be changing the front axle about a bit too.

I have in my pile of spares so far 1 x recon defender LT77, one Disco R380 with TX box, one Defender longstick R380 and a variety of props. I also have plenty of workshop facilities and skills.

Ideally I would have gone with the fully built Stumpy R380 from Ashcrofts but budget doesn't go that far! It is looking most like engine going forwards as far as keeping centre lights will allow, LT77 and Disco LT230 with a Rakeway shortened output housing and X-brake (Electronic speedo to fit somehow then). I would have liked to use the stumpy R380 bellhousing kit but again it's another big chunk of money. I did consider the Series 5 speed adaptor kit from Ashcroft but felt it wasn't quite what I'm looking for and I will have a Hi-Ratio box rebuilt with new gears earlier this year to sell on.

I'm trying to find out if it's possible to swap the bellhousing and input pinion from the LT77 on to the R380? This would be 30mm longer overall than the LT77 but hopefully a better box.

I have had this motor 20 years now and I expect to be keeping it indefinitley otherwise I know it would be much easier to just buy a 90 but I'm a Series man although clearly not a rivet counter!

As for the axles. Well the rear pretty much as good as it gets for a Rover axle already with the Pegged ARB and 24 spline KAM shafts. Maybe change to discs but no rush on that. The plan for the front is lop the ends of the Series casing and re-weld coiler flanges to mount as set of 110 ends with the AEU2722 CV's and disc brakes. I also have a TD5 hub which I will lop the back arm from and taper bore an additional hole into for the drag link putting the steering at the front over the springs without having silly castor angles. The tricky bit is getting the drive from the diff to the CV of course. The solution being a set of shafts from Neil at Rakeway especially made for the job and allowing me to keep to Series diff position and overall width, he can also do the hub arm boring and a set of en24 steering rods for a suprisingly reasonable price.

Is it going to be a huge amount of work for no particular improvement in performance other than the brakes? yes. Do I still want to do it? yes!

I am rewiring and tidying up all the quick fixes done since the last rebuild whilst it's in a pile of bits. Oh and yes I am aware of the hazards surrounding welding around zinc.

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Keith Gott has the bell housings, short input shafts can be obtained too.

Any 5 speed + LT230 will be difficult to fit unless you move the engine forward, propshaft angles being the issue with a 88". So you're ready for that then.

The axle plan looks fun, a DIY stage 1 v8 axle with disks.

If you do it then please document it for us all, it could be a popular conversion if it works. Do give an idea of prices as it helps us all!

g.

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Robotman - sounds like an awesome plan, can't really help with any of your questions, but by the ease that you appear to have pulled out your gear box, you've given me that bit more motivation to get mine pulled and changed out (I've decided to change my old LT77 for a R380 shortbell - when I eventually get paid that is...)

A few questions though, it there plenty of hight with just having the front end up on stands to slide the gear/tran box out together? how did you let it down to the floor, a jack or sling it from inside the cab?

Cheers - I'll be following your progress.

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I do already have a complete Stage One front axle but I am reluctant to use it for the scarcity of spares and still has drum brakes.

I did see the Keith Gott site and several others have them but it is still another wedge of cash on top of the project. If I go with the LT77 then I can change to the stumpy R380 later if needed as it is of course a straight swap.

I'm hoping to have the rear output as near as damn it to where it is now, well that's the plan anyway, obviously I'll have to clear a path for the front prop.

I'll keep you posted, I should be working on it now but luckily I have some very good friends who are doing a lot of the work whilst at work lol!

Prices £Gulp for us Series owning mortals I guess.

The shafts will be £165. 23/24 spline with a long spline so you can trim down to suit your aplication. These could be a while away yet as so far they only have two sets on order and it's still prototype stage. Nothing fancy they just haven't made any yet. I have been given the 110 front axle :D

Short output housing is £325 and X-brake £210. You have to go disc brake with the short output housing as there isn't room to retain the drum which again I would only do to save cash again.

I will probably rebuild my diffs up to 3.54s too but I'll wait and see first as low will be gloriously low and I'm not worried about the strength of mine anyway having pegged them.

Maverik: Box came out the top with a 20 tonne crane ;) , but in the past i've just tied bits of rope round them and made lots of grunting noises. You can drop them though easily enough but it is a juggling act getting them up again. You can get the box out with it on the wheels.

Oh and annoyingly in my day job we used to make these, now they are made in a sister plant and we only do the L319/320/359/445/538 stuff now (saying nothing more about the last two numbers)

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An R380 in a Series? It'll never work I tell ya! :P

If you can, running a rear mounted radiator creates a bit of room in the engine bay.

True, I had considered it but really don't want to as there is knack all room in the back anyway.

I forgot to say stumpy gear and housing on LT77 would be another 30mm shaved off so with the 70mm output housing is roughly the magic 4"! Only if it the bits are interchangeable of course...

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Maverik: Box came out the top with a 20 tonne crane , but in the past i've just tied bits of rope round them and made lots of grunting noises. You can drop them though easily enough but it is a juggling act getting them up again. You can get the box out with it on the wheels.

20te crane huh, hehe alright, I think I'll be using the good old blood, sweat and tears. cheers

Mav

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HI

Nice write up and great info about the prices.

Looking forward to some answer about the LT77 issue.

Im plannig to sort of do the same job to my Light Weight.

The plan is to move the rearaxle about 2" back, to make some more space for the enginge and. gearbox. I do understand if you dont want to do that to a Galv. chassis.

I have just bought a couple LH of start 80's sviwelunits second hand from the UK.

The plan is to use one of these with my own RH in ordre to move the steering up front.

THe way to fit the sviwelunits to the axlehouse, will be done with a 30 mm. adaptor in each side, made to fit the 2 different bolt setups, and then axles from Rakeway. This way Im gaining a little width as well.

... and who doesnt love a series !

Cheers

Morten

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Regarding the front axle mods, you have two problems with the plan. Firstly, you'll need custom inner half shaft between the diffs and CV joints, but companies like KAM might be able to help with that. Secondly, the steering plan won't work - using the drag link arms on the front of the swivels will give a reversed Ackerman angle where the wheel on the inside of the turn will pivot far less than the one on the outside of the turn. Track rods in front of the axle need to be longer than the lateral spacing of the swivel puns, while track rods behind the axle have to be shorter than the pin-to-pin distance. Disc braked axles had to have rear mounted track rods because the disc brake system took up too much space and the swivel arms had to be canted inwards, making the rod shorter than the swivel pin distance.

Have a close look at Meccano's Lightweight - he has got just about everything sorted except his castor angle (which increased when he fitted 1-ton shackles after the axle swap if I understood correctly).

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Have a close look at Meccano's Lightweight - he has got just about everything sorted except his castor angle (which increased when he fitted 1-ton shackles after the axle swap if I understood correctly).

Spot on#!

I also run a defender lt77/ and disco 1.22 lt230 combo too. . I moved the engine 100mm forwards, and shortened the prop by approx 30mm. No viberation problems that i have yet noticed running on 3.5 diffs, but the range rover axles help to overcome the front prop angles and the back is almost original length anyway. I use a standard 200tdi defender front prop ( about 675mm) however it might be worth considering using a range rover lse auto solid type front prop as they have a diameter half the size.

I managed to fit in everything up front by using a modern style rad thats only 40mm thick, and slim electric fans. I was going to fit a 200tdi but i've changed my mind for something a bit more "perky" and an r380 will be junking the lt77.

Oh one thing to mention, clearance with the front axle becomes very limited when you move the lot forwards, so you may want to consider lifting the engine abit so you diff doesn't hit your sump.

Chris

P.S. I beleive both r380 and lt77 input gears are 22 tooth. But i have no idea on bearing sizes.

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Thanks for all the replies.

I had seen the stuff about ackerman many times but I'm going to give it a shot. I already have all the bits bar the shafts which Rakeway are doing.

Pulled the donor 110 apart this afternoon.

Next thing to try is bolt the defender LT77 to the Tdi and dangle it all off the gantry Crane and find a place for it.

I'm all too aware of how low and close to the axle the engine is. I already bent an axle around the bottom pulley after a very heavy landing following a gearbox letting go down a BIG drop.

I have accepted that I'll be cutting the chassis, might do one ton dumb irons even if I can bring myself to do it.

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Having passed trough many of the modifications mentioned, all i can tell you is to run the lt77 and lt230 unmodified. They will fit, even in an 88. Mine is in a 109 you can have a look at how it sits in my build in the members section. My engine and box are around a couple of inches back and lower from a normal 110 or 109. I have already done the military hanger mod as well, you gain some space from the axle to the engine PS pulley, since you must use bump stop spacers, or else you springs will fail prematurely.

Your front axle plan sounds expensive and will probably not work as snagger said, again if you want disks on a series axle you can have a look at mine.

Otherwise good luck on the project.

G

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A freind of mine has been running an 88 on a shortened Rangie chassis for some years. The axles are Range, with LT230 and LT77 and drum brake, and a 200TDi Disco colted on the front as I have. As we both have our original front panels, I can compare the engines and say that we both have ours in about the same place. He has a very short rear prop to counter it, but it does fit. He's been using it hard for 4 years now, and hasn't chewed a prop or anything -maybe the coil springs help??

Apart from the benefits of bigger oil capacity in the R380, is it really worth all that effort when we already know the '77 fits?

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There is no reason you cant run a tdi with an lt77 in a swb. THis is what I run, its the defender version of the LT77S (shortest bellhouse), 88" rr propshaft and coil axles. I moved the grille forward by 20 mm, but this is only because mine is LHD with a pas box. if you are RHD, or use the series steering, it will fit I reckon. The only difference on mine, compared to standard series3, is that the actual wheelbase measures 89".

Pic:

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Intercooler and Pas box fighting for space:

DSC01637.JPG

Daan

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I suspect that the 380 is probably not worth the hassle/cost against the LT77 I just wanted to do a fit and forget, budget constraints as always suggest compromise.

I am still leaning towards the cut and shut axle plan. I appreciate the warnings but I do like the idea of uprated front shafts. It looks like I'll have a 10 spline TrueTrac to sell but what 24 Spline to go in it's place? A seperate issue anyway. I know of a couple of motors running locally with the front arm/rod setup trouble free, or they are putting up with it and saying nowt...I don't want this to become a re-run of the previous Ackerman discussions.

I want to maintain as much rear prop as I can because I'm considering yet another whole can of worms.....:unsure: Revolver shackles :unsure:

Daan your motor is a peach! Space management in the back is inspired :)

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Do not use revolvers on a swb, they tend to unload up steep hills and down ledges, not a nice feeling. The car feels disconnected.

You can get uprated shafts from maxidrive, as i have just enquired for my stage 1 axle, they can have them made in both 24 and 10 spline, stenght issues of spline count are irrelevant with the material they use, or so i have been told.

Cv's on stage one axles are the same as the 2522's just a few mm shorter, this difference can be shaved off the drive flanges to make them work. So parts are not a problem.

G

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The plan for the front is lop the ends of the Series casing and re-weld coiler flanges to mount as set of 110 ends with the AEU2722 CV's and disc brakes. The tricky bit is getting the drive from the diff to the CV of course. The solution being a set of shafts from Neil at Rakeway especially made for the job and allowing me to keep to Series diff position and overall width, he can also do the hub arm boring and a set of en24 steering rods for a suprisingly reasonable price.

Interesting,

when I spoke to him about doing a similar thing he said don't think of getting custom halfshafts from him as they will be ridiculously expensive!!!!

He did suggest talking to KAM where I got some long spline halfshafts to cut down.

Marc.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Do not use revolvers on a swb, they tend to unload up steep hills and down ledges, not a nice feeling. The car feels disconnected.

You can get uprated shafts from maxidrive, as i have just enquired for my stage 1 axle, they can have them made in both 24 and 10 spline, stenght issues of spline count are irrelevant with the material they use, or so i have been told.

Cv's on stage one axles are the same as the 2522's just a few mm shorter, this difference can be shaved off the drive flanges to make them work. So parts are not a problem.

G

I thought Maxidrive was no more?

I have a Stage One axle in amongst my assorted spares, tell me more about this drive flange shaving please Grem?

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I thought Maxidrive was no more?

I have a Stage One axle in amongst my assorted spares, tell me more about this drive flange shaving please Grem?

Sorry the chap who took over maxidrive making shafts, cant seem to remember his name.

Simple, you either shave the end off where the metal cap goes or shave the other end where the 6 bolts go to the hub.

You really need to have it all asembled before to see how nuch you need to shave off, but offhand no more than 2-3mm

G

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  • 3 months later...

Just got myself started again with this project after it has been languishing in a pile of bits while I seem to be doing diffs for everyone else.

I have got the engine and box in, moved as far forward as I can get it, essentially sliding off the gearbox plus a gnats shy of the front crossmember to the front pulley. This gives me a rear prop only 1/2" less than stock.

I have been playing with my Stage One axle. AEU2522 CVs fitted and 23/24 spline EN24 shafts.

Now that I have gone up to 24 spline diff end shafts they dont fit into my TrueTrac any more even with a big hammer! Does anyone know if I can change the splined gears in the TrueTrac from 10 to 24? I can't seem to find any info on it. Probably going to have to sell it and buy a 24 spline diff. I'll just drop a stock 24 spliner in for now.

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What box did you use in the end, lt77 or r380?

I went with the LT77 as I had the chance of a fully recon'd box at mates rates. I would have prefered the late model 380 with stumpy bell housing but the difference in price made it one of the easiest decisions of the job.

I also decided not to bother using the Rakeway short output housing as I only lost 1/2" out the back prop so not worth the money really.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Any update on this? Iv got a Disco 200tdi in my lightweight and contemplating a shorty r380(this should put the gearlever closer to original position I think?) then mod Disco axles to fit on the Parabolics, or just disco diffs and zeus discs(but ££££)

So this is all very interesting to me :)

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