TDI on veggie oil

[freeagent]

i agree with jules, in theory it could, i'm just not sure if one of the engines numerous sensors would spot that something a bit fishy is going on and shut down into safe mode.........

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Im new here...but spotted this thread.

I have run a 2.25, 2.5TD, and a 300TDi on veg oil and I run this forum on the subject here: www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum

Most land rover engines can be made to run on veggy quite happily...however all of them require a 'twin tank' conversion. The idea being you can start and stop on diesel and change over to veg when the engine is hot - and by using a heat exchanger in the fuel line, you can ensure the veg oil is hot and therefore wont kill your engine.

The 2.25, 2.5, and 2.5TD all have lucas injection pumps. These have proven to be quite fragile on veg. If you use veg in these engines when the veg is cold, you will deprive the pump of lubrication and the rotor head will seize, either breaking the timing chain, or shearing off the drive shaft. Either way...its nasty.

The TDi engines however, have a bosch injection pump - these have proven to be quite robust on veggy...however the fact that they are direct injection poses a new set of problems: When the engine is cold, the oil will not burn correctly (if at all on a very cold morning) in the cylinder. It can then condense on the cylinder walls and will both cause coking under the piston rings, and get into the sump oil where it will cause a chemical reaction that will polymerise it. Again...not very nice.

I dont know much about the TD5...but it will require a twin tank again. I would probably give it a go if it was mine...but I wouldnt advise anyone to try it!

Have a look in the archive section of the forum above. There are some posts in there that explain things a little better. You could also look here: www.inhislandy.co.uk and click on 'veggy pages'. Mostly geared towards land rovers.

As for making biodiesel...in short...heat it up, add a methoxide mixture made up to the correct concentrations and volumes by doing some calculations and titrations on the oil....mix for an hour or so...wash...dry...put it in your landy!

Customs and excise will also want a slice if you are in the UK and your landy is road registered (doesnt matter if it is only used off road...if it has number plates, the fuel must be taxed). Technically the tax rate is 27.1p per litre for both veggy and biodiesel, but there is a bit of a fight going on at the moment....

Any questions?

[jules]

Im new here...but spotted this thread.

I have run a 2.25, 2.5TD, and a 300TDi on veg oil and I run this forum on the subject here: www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum

Most land rover engines can be made to run on veggy quite happily...however all of them require a 'twin tank' conversion. The idea being you can start and stop on diesel and change over to veg when the engine is hot - and by using a heat exchanger in the fuel line, you can ensure the veg oil is hot and therefore wont kill your engine.

The 2.25, 2.5, and 2.5TD all have lucas injection pumps. These have proven to be quite fragile on veg. If you use veg in these engines when the veg is cold, you will deprive the pump of lubrication and the rotor head will seize, either breaking the timing chain, or shearing off the drive shaft. Either way...its nasty.

The TDi engines however, have a bosch injection pump - these have proven to be quite robust on veggy...however the fact that they are direct injection poses a new set of problems: When the engine is cold, the oil will not burn correctly (if at all on a very cold morning) in the cylinder. It can then condense on the cylinder walls and will both cause coking under the piston rings, and get into the sump oil where it will cause a chemical reaction that will polymerise it. Again...not very nice.

I dont know much about the TD5...but it will require a twin tank again. I would probably give it a go if it was mine...but I wouldnt advise anyone to try it!

Have a look in the archive section of the forum above. There are some posts in there that explain things a little better. You could also look here: www.inhislandy.co.uk and click on 'veggy pages'. Mostly geared towards land rovers.

As for making biodiesel...in short...heat it up, add a methoxide mixture made up to the correct concentrations and volumes by doing some calculations and titrations on the oil....mix for an hour or so...wash...dry...put it in your landy!

Customs and excise will also want a slice if you are in the UK and your landy is road registered (doesnt matter if it is only used off road...if it has number plates, the fuel must be taxed). Technically the tax rate is 27.1p per litre for both veggy and biodiesel, but there is a bit of a fight going on at the moment....

Any questions?

I don't want to go for the twin tank as I need all the space my Disco 2 Td5 has in the boot for my two dogs

All I want to do is run a mix of oil with diesel can this be done.

??

[jules]

Just spoke to Dieselveg

The TD5/4 cant be don't at this moment in time but they are developing a fuel pump strongenough to deal with the oil.

The fuel mix is not the best option as the fuel when cool the oil can glaze the boars if it is not warm enough.

They will let me know when a td5/4 friendly kit is avalible which he is hoping will be soon.

The second tank option is a must so I would need a second tank on my disco that is not in the car.

anyone know what second tanks or long rang tanks are avalible for disco 2's

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Actually...smartveg have a couple of Tourans converted. This is the same engine as the td5.

Its a question of fooling the electronics too. Might be worth giving them a ring. www.smartveg.com

Just spoke to Dieselveg

The TD5/4 cant be don't at this moment in time but they are developing a fuel pump strongenough to deal with the oil.

The fuel mix is not the best option as the fuel when cool the oil can glaze the boars if it is not warm enough.

They will let me know when a td5/4 friendly kit is avalible which he is hoping will be soon.

The second tank option is a must so I would need a second tank on my disco that is not in the car.

anyone know what second tanks or long rang tanks are avalible for disco 2's

[GBMUD]

Actually...smartveg have a couple of Tourans converted. This is the same engine as the td5.

Its a question of fooling the electronics too. Might be worth giving them a ring. www.smartveg.com

I think a Touran is a VW. Why would they be using a Landrover engine? Same number of cylinders, different engine.

Chris

[jules]

Actually...smartveg have a couple of Tourans converted. This is the same engine as the td5.

Its a question of fooling the electronics too. Might be worth giving them a ring. www.smartveg.com

Its the pump is not strong enough to be reliable in the td5 apparently.

I could do with out spending £495 on the conversion then replacing pumps every five minutes

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Hmmm...I was under the impression that they were the same engine.

It might just be the fuel system thats identical then.

The electric fuel pump in the tank is a major stumbling block. The additional tank must be used for veg with a more robust fuel pump...with the same ratings as the original.

[Fatboy]

Gents,

Reading the thread with interest and thought I'd chuck a couple of thoughts into the (chip) pan

1. From what I understand, 100% biodiesel is not good for stop and start thus the two tanks requirement. Is there any potential to use propane as a catalyst to improve its burn therefore get more power / efficiency? or is that getting too complicated with the requirement for 3 tanks?

SAFETY

2. I'd urge a bit of caution before building home distallation towers with immersion heaters and pumps... I know of a high potential accident where a chap was using a diaphram pump with diesel and a lance to clean down (in a totally contained environment). He added air to the discharge side of the diaphram pump to give it more oomph...

and created a fairly impressive flame thrower !

Heat / Pressure / Misting only needs a spark (and sometimes not even that) to ignite. Put the combination in an old hot water tank along with 30 gallons of fuel has the potential to do damage.

[jules]

Gents,

Reading the thread with interest and thought I'd chuck a couple of thoughts into the (chip) pan

1. From what I understand, 100% biodiesel is not good for stop and start thus the two tanks requirement. Is there any potential to use propane as a catalyst to improve its burn therefore get more power / efficiency? or is that getting too complicated with the requirement for 3 tanks?

SAFETY

2. I'd urge a bit of caution before building home distallation towers with immersion heaters and pumps... I know of a high potential accident where a chap was using a diaphram pump with diesel and a lance to clean down (in a totally contained environment). He added air to the discharge side of the diaphram pump to give it more oomph...

and created a fairly impressive flame thrower !

Heat / Pressure / Misting only needs a spark (and sometimes not even that) to ignite. Put the combination in an old hot water tank along with 30 gallons of fuel has the potential to do damage.

I must admit the immersion heater bit worries me a little but I have eight plumbers working for me so I should imagine they can sort something out for me.

[Bush65]

...

1. From what I understand, 100% biodiesel is not good for stop and start thus the two tanks requirement...

I think you are confusing biodiesel and vege oil.

There is no need for 2 tanks with biodiesel, which is produced from vege oil.

However with straight vege oil you need 2 tanks etc.

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Gents,

Reading the thread with interest and thought I'd chuck a couple of thoughts into the (chip) pan

1. From what I understand, 100% biodiesel is not good for stop and start thus the two tanks requirement. Is there any potential to use propane as a catalyst to improve its burn therefore get more power / efficiency? or is that getting too complicated with the requirement for 3 tanks?

SAFETY

2. I'd urge a bit of caution before building home distallation towers with immersion heaters and pumps... I know of a high potential accident where a chap was using a diaphram pump with diesel and a lance to clean down (in a totally contained environment). He added air to the discharge side of the diaphram pump to give it more oomph...

and created a fairly impressive flame thrower !

Heat / Pressure / Misting only needs a spark (and sometimes not even that) to ignite. Put the combination in an old hot water tank along with 30 gallons of fuel has the potential to do damage.

1. Biodiesel is fine for stopping and starting. Two tanks is only required for veggy.

2. Absolutley. If you intend to make biodiesel, you have some VERY nasty chemicals as well as heat+fuel. The potential for fire and chemcial damage to both yourself and your property is huge. I make mine in the garden, and use googles+face mask+gloves at all times. I think the neighbours think im a bit odd

Filtering waste veggy though is pretty safe. Vegetable oil is reluctant to catch fire at the best of times. I have thrown lit matches, and blowtorches at a drum to prove to my housemates that im not going to burn the house down!

[Cartman]

A summary

1. SVO - Straight Vegetable Oil. New veg oil not 'reclaimed'. If you want to run this in 100% concentrations then it has to be pre-heated to reduce the viscosity to keep the FIP happy. So a two tank system is manditory.

2. or, use SVO with mineral diesel. Up to 30% will keep almost all vehicle FIP's happy. Especially down sarf.

3. If you want to use 'waste' oil then filtering and 'drying' will have to be carried out. Filter/Heat/stand etc. as mentioned above. A week per 40 gall drum stand time does the job for seperation but heating and agitation speeds up the process.

3. Biodiesel is created from the transestrification of veg oil to create a suitable equivalent fuel to mineral diesel. But is not suitable for all vehicles. You also need suitable equipment/hazardous chemicals and somewhere to dispose of all the glycerine that you will produce. This is classified as toxic.

Overall I would say 90% of all the 'veg' fuel vehicles out there run method 2. It's the easiest system and veg comes in convenient sized containers But long term method 3. is preferred if you can get around the cost and hazardous chemical purchase, handling and production.....................

Jules,

I have a mate running an '02 reg 110 TD5 on 30% SVO blend. No problems - yet.

Lidl have just put their veg prices up again. 55p! a litre. Back to Asda still marginally cheaper and it comes in 3 litre bottles

[white90]

tips/hints/suppliers for the bits to build your own kit like the smartveg one?

[TheRecklessEngineer]

2. or, use SVO with mineral diesel. Up to 30% will keep almost all vehicle FIP's happy. Especially down sarf.

Ive heard of lucas injection pumps seizing on as little as 15% veg. These really are very fragile. I wouldnt risk it.

And its not just the FIP you need to keep happy - Direct injection engines will suffer from piston ring coking and polymerisation of the sump oil if veg gets into the sump - which it inevitably does. Ive had this on my 300TDi - if your sump level starts going up...do an oil change quick! The oil came out in lumps on mine. This is especially true if you have tweaked your injection pump for increased fuelling.

If you are not too worried, then id say 30% blend in a TDi is fine...however...keep an eye on your sump level, and keep your injectors clean!

[GBMUD]

You are worrying me now.

Chris

[jules]

This is the response from Dieselveg. which is a worth while read.

Your TD5 has a quite complex fuel system and we are awaiting a suitable pump for evaluation to enable us to reliable convert them

Mixing large amounts of vegetable oil to diesel can be detrimental to an unmodified diesel engines health and to the environment. Worst of all it could serve to give us a bad name. There are many common misconceptions about running diesels on veg oil, just because the vehicle appears to start and run ok with a mix on an unmodified engine, then it must be OK? WRONG. Vegetable oil ONLY burns cleanly when hot, so when mixing, most of all potential damage will be caused when starting from cold, the veg oil part of the mix does not fully atomise, causing large droplets of uncombustable fuel, some will be thrown out of the exhaust causing unnecessary pollution and the remainder accumulates on the pistons and bores, causing GREATER ENGINE OIL CONTAMINATION, and a risk of polymerisation which damages surfaces on bores and valves. Another problem is that most diesel filters are either inadequately heated or not heated at all causing veg oil to wax up and hinder or stop fuel flow and stopping the engine. With a two tank kit, you start on diesel and only introduce veg oil at the correct time/temp, then it is purged back to diesel ready for the next mornings start-up, this completely eliminates the above problems.

Mixing a small amount of veg oil to an unmodified diesel is, however, undoubtedly beneficial. Five percent would not hinder combustion and would aid fuel system lubrication. There would also be an improvement in emissions, similar to that of the same bio-diesel mix.

ALL diesel engines have a certain amount of fuel to engine oil contamination to a greater or lesser extent dependant upon many things. This is why, when engine oil is changed it immediately appears black again, this is soot deposits amongst other contaminates. When diesel contaminates engine oil it thins it out, when veg oil contaminates it thickens, a simple test is to dip then get sample oil between thumb and forefinger, if it is sticky, CHANGE THE OIL, with converted engines in good condition this does not usually happen until normal service mileage is up, if at all. In extreme cases where vehicle has gone way over its service interval and/or engine is not in good repair the engine oil can turn to sludge. BE WARNED.

Kind Regards

Nicholas Hicken

Dieselveg Ltd

Unit 7A Monmore Business Park

Dixon Street

Wolverhampton

West Midlands

WV2 2BT England

[freeagent]

i've heard about this problem with the engine oil, mate of mine is a mechanic and they recently had a rebuild on a Ford engine that had failed after the oil went like black jelly... nasty....

personally, i'd still go for a weak mix straight in the tank with a TDi, i might stick to 5 or 10% on the new one though.........

[white90]

can you run a 2 tank system on WVO once filtered?

[jules]

can you run a 2 tank system on WVO once filtered?

OK I'm missing something

"whats WVO"

or am I amazingly dim. Just worked it out sorry I'm dim

one of my lads put 18lt in his td5 (had half tank of diesel in already) yesterday and drove the 45 miles home and the 45 miles back in and noticed no change to his disco one of the other lads runs a Izuzu crew cab that is also just as intrested.

[tomaxcars]

OK I'm missing something

"whats WVO"

or am I amazingly dim. Just worked it out sorry I'm dim

one of my lads put 18lt in his td5 (had half tank of diesel in already) yesterday and drove the 45 miles home and the 45 miles back in and noticed no change to his disco one of the other lads runs a Izuzu crew cab that is also just as intrested.

WVO = Waste Vegetable Oil

SVO = Straight Vegetable Oil

PPO = Pure Plant Oil

All the same thing - just WVO has been fried up with the saussies.

Once any of the above are transesterificated they become Biodiesel.

Add: We run a Td5 but with the fuel system and injectors costing so much, should something go wrong, I can't see the benefit at present. In most of Continental Europe they already have a 5% mix of biodiesel in diesel at the pump - so this level should be perfectly safe - just make sure it's well washed.

Cheers,

Andrew.

[Michele]

personally, i'd still go for a weak mix straight in the tank with a TDi, i might stick to 5 or 10% on the new one though.........

Local consensus is 1lt./tank,max 2.

I did it for a while (12 liters),then ran out of VO.

I didn't experience any major improvement (but no more stinking exaust gas),

but then you should open the engine after a long term test in the years to come to

be scientifically sure.

Who can?

[simonr]

OK, Time to share my experience so far.

There is just too much info on the web - and a lot of it contradictory (a lot of it is just wrong - or skewed by companies trying to flog £799 kits for running SVO).

My current average fuel consumption in a 200tdi is 24.2mpg - most of which is short runs < 5 mile.

My average over 6 years of commuting 34 miles per day was 28.4mpg in the same vehicle.

Why do I know this so precisely? It's a company vehicle - and I keep accurate fuel & mileage records.

The last tank worth I ran 50% sunflower oil with Millers fuel additive for a bit of extra lube.

I got 24.1mpg - so within the experimental accuracy - the same mpg.

I would conclude therefore that the stories of the oil not atomising and not burning when cold - is just plain untrue. The diesel and veg oil are misible i.e mix completly, do not separate out like oil & water. There is no way they wil magically separate in the injectors.

If the combustion was that poor when cold, I would expect a measurable reduction in mpg - emphasised by the short runs and the engine never reaching operating temperature.

It would be worth removing one of the injectors & fire it up just to see what the spray pattern is like.

I went to tesco today to buy oil - completly sold out, save for small and expensive bottles.

Went to Sainsburys - and bought all the 3l bottles they had (12) - and it was only £0.49 per litre. The last tank worth was £0.69 a litre - maybe the demand is drawing down prices?

As for the £799 kits. The first people to run on SVO built their own. If you use manual change-over 'Y' valves and can remember not to switch to oil until the engine is up to temperature and to purge the system before you stop - you don't need the £299 control box. The heat exchanger is easy to make. Simplest is a length of 1/2" anealed copper pipe (used for air conditioning) with 8mm anealed copper pipe (microbore heating systems) wound tightly in a coil around it. Even better if one is soldered to the other. Insulate and wrap in tape. The 1/2" pipe goes before the heater in your cooling system and the 8mm in series with the oil feed to the engine.

An oil tank can be as simple as a jerry can - or even one of the nice orange plastic tanks - all of £40.

I sent Tony a circuit for how to build a simple controller that you can build for a couple of quid - it has a purge warning buzzer and will only allow you to switch to oil when the engine is up to temp.

If tony wants to post it - that's fine. I deleted the file by mistake.

With the fuel prices as high as they are and the Veg oil prices as low - it would be rude not to!

Si

[simonr]

Forgot to mention - no difference in performance. It feels slightly different to drive - but it's very subtle and I can't quite tell what is different. Slightly different power curve maybe?

On Sunflower oil, I get quite a nice smell from the exhaust. It smells like they are cooking popcorn nextdoor.

I was wondering about using something like a 'rotary manifold' or proportional manifold to mix the oil & diesel from separate tanks - on the fly.

A proportional manifold is a thing used in hydraulics if you want say a pair of rams to move together - even if the load is different on each - for example the rams that lift the front shovel on a digger.

They are a bit like a pair of oil gear pumps connected together on the same shaft.

If you were to connect one side to the diesel and the other to the veg oil, a given amount of diesel flowing through the manifold would pump the same volume of oil through the other side.

This would give a consistent, precise mixture of the two, from separate tanks.

Just a thought.

Si

[Bush65]

...I was wondering about using something like a 'rotary manifold' or proportional manifold to mix the oil & diesel from separate tanks - on the fly...

I would be concerned that pressure drop across the manifold would be to great for the lift pump, partcularly at low ambient temps. If this is the case, a good electric fuel pump between tank/heater and manifold would probably solve it.