Did you know you need a licence

[Pam]

I find it particularly odd (even to the point of being annoying) that this Licence requirement applies to drivers only. This seems to point to a misconception and/or poor understanding of the role of the navigator/co-driver in Challenge events. Winching and directing the driver through off-road sections are skills that require at least a basic understanding of off-road driving and vehicle performance. The driver/navigator act as a team and therefore should be considered 'equal' to the driver in competition terms. The most successful teams are those where the skills of the driver and the skills of the navi are well matched.

And besides, some events the navi may even be required to drive certain sections or tasks.... so how would that work?

So if we are to go the way of Licences for Challenge events then this should surely apply to the whole 'team' in a vehicle, not just the driver. This should really have been considered by the relevant MSA committee/s.

Pam

[JST]

I find it particularly odd (even to the point of being annoying) that this Licence requirement applies to drivers only. This seems to point to a misconception and/or poor understanding of the role of the navigator/co-driver in Challenge events. Winching and directing the driver through off-road sections are skills that require at least a basic understanding of off-road driving and vehicle performance. The driver/navigator act as a team and therefore should be considered 'equal' to the driver in competition terms. The most successful teams are those where the skills of the driver and the skills of the navi are well matched.

And besides, some events the navi may even be required to drive certain sections or tasks.... so how would that work?

So if we are to go the way of Licences for Challenge events then this should surely apply to the whole 'team' in a vehicle, not just the driver. This should really have been considered by the relevant MSA committee/s.

Pam

valid points and i agree but dont tell them that it will be £46 now!

[TJ101]

Pam

It goes without saying the Passenger/Co-driver/navigator/Bitch/Whatever will require a Msa licence,, Possibility at club level, a Non-driving version ??

[GCL]

I find it particularly odd (even to the point of being annoying) that this Licence requirement applies to drivers only. This seems to point to a misconception and/or poor understanding of the role of the navigator/co-driver in Challenge events. Winching and directing the driver through off-road sections are skills that require at least a basic understanding of off-road driving and vehicle performance. The driver/navigator act as a team and therefore should be considered 'equal' to the driver in competition terms. The most successful teams are those where the skills of the driver and the skills of the navi are well matched.

And besides, some events the navi may even be required to drive certain sections or tasks.... so how would that work?

So if we are to go the way of Licences for Challenge events then this should surely apply to the whole 'team' in a vehicle, not just the driver. This should really have been considered by the relevant MSA committee/s.

Pam

If the co driver is to drive as well at an event then they too need the same licence.

Simon

[Pam]

Pam

It goes without saying the Passenger/Co-driver/navigator/Bitch/Whatever will require a Msa licence,, Possibility at club level, a Non-driving version ??

You've completely missed my point.

My point is that the newly 'announced' regs require ONLY the driver to purchase a National B License. Whereas the 'passenger' is only required to produce a Club Card (ie. a Clubman licence which you automatically get by becoming a member of an MSA club).

A Challenge Navigator is NOT just a passenger !! A point the MSA appear to have completely missed!

(And of course, potential for additional confusion/aggravation when organising events, setting driver/navi tasks, and writing SRs....)

(Note: I have been a member of a MSA Recognised club for almost 20 years and as a Club Comp Sec and Rally Sec I have a reasonable understanding of how MSA regs, permits, and SRs work... I have no big problem with the MSA but just think this one has been handled very badly.)

[Pam]

If the co driver is to drive as well at an event then they too need the same licence.

Simon

Indeed, that is one of the points I was making. It would have been much simpler (and made more sense given the variety of types of challenge event, and that the navi is an integral part of the competetive team) to require all competitors to have EITHER just a Clubman licence (as before) OR all competitors to have a Nat B.....

Badly thought out and, as I said before, lack of awareness of the amount of input the navi has on the event, even if they do not need to actually drive (ie, a lot!)

[Milemarker Type S]

I think the term 'badly thought out' is particularly appropriate to everything the MSA seems to be trying to do in terms of challenge events at the moment... It would appear that they have little if any idea of what a challenge event actually is...

Please don't get me wrong I fully understand the need to regulate what we do- but feel that the restrictions and rules need to be proportionate to what we do and written by people who understand our sport.

[saley]

I think the term 'badly thought out' is particularly appropriate to everything the MSA seems to be trying to do in terms of challenge events at the moment... It would appear that they have little if any idea of what a challenge event actually is...

Please don't get me wrong I fully understand the need to regulate what we do- but feel that the restrictions and rules need to be proportionate to what we do and written by people who understand our sport.

Yes all this is true the same as fireproof helmets with jeans and t-shirt whats that about

[Daan]

Is the MSA license not meant to be some kind of driving license that can be taken of you when you have been caught cheating/bashing/swearing/handbagging/nitpicking/moaning/naming and shaming/hitting/blagging/fixing a race/all other things that baddies do in order to win?

Is there any other reason that there is some kind of control over who is competing, like someone who is banned due to drink driving for example?

I mean, ok it is more hassle, but if we all think the sport should move on, then we shouldnt start a slanging match over every time someone introduces rules IMO.

Daan

[saley]

Its on the MSA website all drivers in challenge events need a clubman licence

[Boothy]

Anyone point me to where I get some Nomex fireproof boxer shorts in XXXL from, especially in tartan with little teddies on em, just getting prepared for next year.......

I have already applied for my licence, just wait for the price if you need a medical......

[Dave W]

Be aware that if you're entering a championship you need a National B license not a clubmans license. If you have a National B you can enter either level of event but with a clubmans license you can't enter a National B event (which is what all championships have to be run as).

[najw]

Be aware that if you're entering a championship you need a National B license not a clubmans license. If you have a National B you can enter either level of event but with a clubmans license you can't enter a National B event (which is what all championships have to be run as).

Unless its an internal club championship open only to members of the organising club.

[Ian M]

so for Howlin Wolf 2010, what licnece do we need? Im confused by this whole thing?

Ian

[Holyzeus]

Unless its an internal club championship open only to members of the organising club.

Ok Neil so we don't have to have a National B license for an AWDC Series but do we need a Clubman's ?

[Dave W]

Neil will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure but I think AWDC are running clubman status. LRS is registered as a championship I believe so will be National B.

Hopefully the organisers will start making it clear what status their event is so if you might want to compete in more than one you can buy the highest level you need at the start rather than having to do it twice.

[najw]

Ok Neil so we don't have to have a National B license for an AWDC Series but do we need a Clubman's ?

Yes

If you go to the Challenge section of the AWDC website HERE

You will find the necessary details

[GCL]

The LRS is a clubmans not national B championship hosted by Viking 4x4 & MOC plus 5 invited clubs as per MSA rules.

Blue book page 80

(D)4.3.1.(b)

It is not a registered MAS championship

[Dave W]

The LRS is a clubmans not national B championship hosted by Viking 4x4 & MOC plus 5 invited clubs as per MSA rules.

Blue book page 80

(D)4.3.1.(b)

It is not a registered MAS championship

I suggest you read the rest of 4.3.1(b)...

"Clubman events may not form part of any championship other than a championship restricted to the organising club"

You can only have one organising club and only the members of the organising club can take part in the championship. So in that case whichever of the two clubs apply for the permit, their members will be the only ones eligible for the championship. Any members of invited clubs (including the club that didn't apply for the permit and is therefore an invited club) can compete in the event but their score cannot be included in the championship results.

You have to run National B to have more than one club in a championship and you have to register it as a championship. Only single club championships are exempt from registering.

Being recognised as a member of a club requires that they have voting rights at at least one AGM. This means you can't use some form of weekend membership to allow people to take part.

[Pam]

I know its good to have clarification on what is a Clubmans event and what is a National B BUT according to the clarification on the MSA website it doesn't really matter what permit the event is being run on as

"At events of National B status and above and all Competitive Safaris, Timed Trials, Team Recovery, Point to Point, Challenge Events and Junior Trials, Drivers must produce a Competition Licence [as detailed in Section H]......”

So, as per the original question on this thread, yes, if you are going to enter as a driver in ANY Challenge event you'll need a Comp Licence (the £23 one). Or am I being Mrs Thicky??

[Dave W]

I know its good to have clarification on what is a Clubmans event and what is a National B BUT according to the clarification on the MSA website it doesn't really matter what permit the event is being run on as

"At events of National B status and above and all Competitive Safaris, Timed Trials, Team Recovery, Point to Point, Challenge Events and Junior Trials, Drivers must produce a Competition Licence [as detailed in Section H]......”

So, as per the original question on this thread, yes, if you are going to enter as a driver in ANY Challenge event you'll need a Comp Licence (the £23 one). Or am I being Mrs Thicky??

You can either buy a "Non-Race Clubman" or "Non-Race National B" so if you only enter clubman status events you only need a clubman license which is cheaper than National B. You need a National B license to enter any National B status events. Clubman is £23 National B is £37 so it's best you know which l;icense you need at the start of the year.

Upgrading a clubman license to National B will cost you the differnce PLUS an uggrade fee of £27 so to go from clubman to National B afterwards costs you £41 on top of the £23 you already paid...

[Mark90]

if you are going to enter as a driver in ANY Challenge event you'll need a Comp Licence

Not ANY challenge, you only need a license if you are going to enter MSA regulated/insured events.

[Pam]

Not ANY challenge, you only need a license if you are going to enter MSA regulated/insured events.

Well obviously that is what I meant Mark as the vast majority of this thread is a discussion about MSA events and so doesn't apply to anything run outside of MSA....

Although a lot of us have been used to MSA stuff for many years it is very new to people who have not come into off-roading via those routes... therefore it is important for each point to be clarified so people do understand the implications and get to events well prepared. Rather sort out confusion now than at signing on!

[Boothy]

Dave W, please don't take this the wrong way, are you something to do with MSA or very well read up or an organiser /scrutineer or something ??

It's not meant to be an insult just an incocent question, as you seem to very much "in the know".

Cheers

[Dave W]

Not ANY challenge, you only need a license if you are going to enter MSA regulated/insured events.

True, although I have no idea who is running challenges outside the MSA this year.