Forum Charter - your views required

[BogMonster]

Now that the LR4x4.com forum is firmly established, the moderating team feel that it is time for a Forum Charter to establish what constitutes reasonable use of the forum and take into account recent concerns expressed to the moderating team about a number of aspects of the way the forum is managed, such as:

- the need for clear direction on posting rules and regulations for new members, and clear direction for moderators to ensure consistent action by moderators

- the relevance of some posts on the forum and whether there should be more restrictions on keeping things to Land Rover content and/or a separate forum for Off Topic posts

- the need for transparency and user input in the way that moderators and administrators are appointed and dismissed

- the need to take into account the wishes of all forum members and particularly those who have contributed to the upkeep of this forum whether financially or otherwise

Please would any users who have a view on any or all of these issues, or any other issue related to how the forum is administrated and how decisions are (or should be) made, post a reply to this thread with their views. In view of the need for this to be an open discussion for all to see, people should please post here rather than PM individual moderators.

In order to try and structure this discussion and the way forwards, the moderating team propose that a forum charter be crafted taking into account current policy as modified by the comments received, which will cover all of the matters listed above and any others which a significant number of users feel are important, and this will then be published in draft form for further comment.

Once any comments are incorporated, a decision will need to be made on the adoption of this and a practical solution to this might be to have a poll for members to vote on with a majority of the votes cast required to be "for" the adoption. Again comments on the requirement for this are welcome!

Current situation

The current situation on this forum is relatively straightforward, in case users are not aware of the current processes we follow the main points that would be covered in the forum charter are outlined briefly below:

Forum values

This forum has been established to provide an independent and open place for discussing and sharing information and activities relating to Land Rovers. The forum's independence is maintained by the generous contribution of its members, which keeps us free from the influence of magazines or other sponsors. Contributions are not disclosed and do not secure the member any additional rights, they are a gift to the LR4x4 community enabling all to share equally in the benefits of an independent forum.

Appointment of moderators

If a need is identified for a new moderator, somebody in the existing team will usually put forward a suggested person for discussion, though there have been cases where users have nominated themselves by PM'ing a moderator/admin and this is perfectly acceptable. If a suggestion is put forward then the user will be approached to see if they are interested and willing to do the task. The moderating team will then discuss this for a few days and take into account things such as the contribution the member makes to the forum (number and quality of posts), whether they have knowledge relevant to the forum subject, whether they are likely to have common sense in deciding what is and is not acceptable, and so on. If the general feeling is that the candidate is suitable then the appointment will be made, or if there is a choice then the one felt to be most suitable will be appointed.

Moderating actions/policy

Generally anything blatantly inappropriate (e.g. commercial spam, porn, gratuitous swearing, obviously libellous comments) will be removed immediately by the relevant forum moderator when they see it and if it is deleted by one of us will be stored in a Recycling Forum which only moderators have access to, so it can be undeleted if required for any reason. If a persistent offender is identified (which is very rare) then discussion will occur in the moderators forum as to whether the username should be banned or other action taken against them. Usually if somebody is taking the mick then a stern PM asking them to behave is all that is required.

The use by individuals of multiple usernames by is strongly frowned upon and actively discouraged (experience has shown they are often used by people to cause mischief). Likewise people who register as new users simply in order to post advertising material (whether spam or a genuine classified advert) without contributing in any other way to the content of the forum. The "20 post rule" covers this and details of this rule are posted at the top of the Classified forum.

Rules and regulations

Rules and regulations have deliberately been kept simple and have been left to "common sense" rather than trying to write them down in minute detail. Users are basically not permitted to post material (including avatars) that would be looked upon as obscene or offensive by the average man or woman, or likely to land the forum in hot water legally. The general litmus test of our current policy on content is that if it is spam or if you wouldn't be prepared to let your children see it, we probably don't want it on this forum, but a large amount is down to the discretion of the individual moderator. Our experience suggests that the vast majority of users understand the general principle of this and few step over the line, there is the occasional rapped knuckle but usually the only problems occur when somebody new comes in determined to cause trouble.

Please, in responding to this post, offer solutions where possible and not just problems. We don't want to hear "I don't like X." - we need to hear "I don't like X, because of Y and I would like you to do Z instead".

Initially this post will be "sticky" for replies for 2 weeks and we will consider the responses at the end of that time.

We look forward to hearing your views!

[GBMUD]

Nothing much to say really, it is all common sence as outlined above.

The only point I would make is about posting off-topic. I enjoy off-topic posts as long as I feel I can join in with them - there is a lot of humour to be had this way. As I posted on another, mysteriously vanishing thread, posts which are essentially about members communicating private business on the forum are not appropriate - posts directing members towards their PMs or continuing conversations started away from the forum are typical examples.

Chris

[rtbarton]

I liike it the way it is, I think the "would you allow your children on the forum" test is a good one.

[jeremy996]

I liike it the way it is, I think the "would you allow your children on the forum" test is a good one.

I both greatly enjoy the forum, (although I don't say much), and believe that the test above is a good one. Could I suggest that the imagined children are 13 or so - there have been a number of posts where I would be unhappy for my 7 year old to see, but I feel the forum would be a poorer place without. For example, Ben Jordan's spoof Toyota Land Crusier advert, it made me laugh, but the f*** word in the copy is inappropriate for pre-teens.

Les' "t*ts" response was a classic of moderation and I suspect I'd draw the line about there as well.

[Fatboy]

Steve,

I think it is a good idea but I'd suggest that we don't expect it to be a solution that solves many problems. The Forum already has some simple rules that some folk manage to totally ignore and expanding them into a Charter isn't going to make them abide any more..

For example, at the top of the Classified Forum is a clear and simple message but how many folk have we seen wade straight in without paying any attention to post their ads - quite a few.

I'd guess that quite few of the problems that have occurred recently would have been very difficult to anticipate and if you did a "substitution test" to see if the Charter would have assisted in preventing them or finding a solution, I don't think it would.

[simonr]

I'd agree with the above - the level of rudeness allowed.

My main gripe about the forum has always been that decisions lke this have always been out of the control of members, let alone the appointment of moderators.

I would like to see a mechanism by which we are at the very least consulted before a mod is appointed. The reason given in the past for not allowing them to be elected was that the mods might be privey to information which would render that person unsuitable which is not public knowledge - thus it's better to let the mods decide.

I say, it cuts both ways. An ideal candidate as far as the mods are concerned might be busy flaming people by PM or email?

I propose that we, the members be permitted to nominate suitable candidates for a given post (but not oneself). The nominations should be closed (only visible to the mods) and for any given appointment, let the mods decide between the top few candidates, ordered by the number of nominations.

If nobody votes, the mods decide as before.

This I believe is a reasonable compromise between the two extremes. It might be worth allowing negative nominations as well to cope with the above 'flaming by PM' situation.

The top nominations should not be disclosed to the members (to stop fighting), only the final choice.

It strikes me that there have been several instances recently of posts or entire threads being deleted - possibly with good reason - but that's the trouble, it's a closed subject and we'll never know.

There should be an escalation procedure. Something like:

* If post can be modified to remove rude words without changing the meaning or censoring - it should be done immediatly.

* If a post falls in to one of the categories for deletion listed above, the post should be edited by the mod and annotated with the reason why it has been edited.

* If a block of posts fall in to this category, a single annotation is sufficient, the rest of the posts can be deleted.

* If a thread is going bad (content wise) and the above is not working, the offenders should be warned by PM.

* If the warning does not work, the thread should at most be locked - not deleted.

* A thread should only ever be deleted with a unanimous vote by the mods and admins. If a thread is to be deleted, a public explanation should be posted of the reasons.

There should be the right for a member to appeal against such a decision and if the general opinion is that the moderator has overstepped the line, the post be reinstated. The other mods and admins should self police mods who misbehave!

The above satisfies the requirements set out by steve, without the actions of the mods appearing as open as the KGB! This will in turn improve the members perception of the mods.

It would be daft to open up every decision o the forum to a public debate like this - but there should be more of them. Since, to a greater extent than any other forum, it is owned and funded by the members, it is not unreasonable to expect to be able to exert some control over it's running.

At the moment, threads get moved to a more appropriate forum on occasion (Eg. if I started a thread about tweaking L322 RR ECU's in the Series Forum - it would be reasonable to move it to the RR forum.

The same should be true of the really OT posts as described by Chris above. Rather than just deleting them - move them to a OT forum. The users can carry on the discussion as necessary but it keeps the other forums clear.

That's about all I can think of for now!

Si

[BogMonster]

I am not going to respond to most points yet, will see how the discussion develops, but I would like views on one thing which is raised by Si.

I think the only threads that have been deleted immediately without any discussion among mods have been gratuitous spamming: I deleted one such thread from the Discovery forum the other day and somebody else deleted an exact copy of it also from the Discovery forum less than 24 hours later. The poster was a commercial business who had not posted anything else on this forum.

Posts in the Classifieds from people who have only just registered are also, as far as I am aware, deleted immediately. I feel that if somebody can't be bothered to read the advisory post stuck to the top of that forum then I don't have much sympathy. It would be a lot of work for the Classified forum moderator if it was necessary to go through a moderation process on every single post from a new user, because there are a lot of them! I just had a quick look and the first page of the Recycled forum contains 28 threads all of which are from this month and all except a handful are classified ads from people who didn't bother to read the post at the top of that forum.

Does anybody think we should NOT do this to posts which are an "open and shut case"? You may of course then be nominated as an extra Classifieds moderator if you have that much spare time

[Les Henson]

Bluddy Nora Simon, you do know we go to work don't you?

Sleep, eat, etc, the same as other humans?

Les.

[simonr]

Bluddy Nora Simon, you do know we go to work don't you?

Sleep, eat, etc, the same as other humans?

Les.

Dear Mr "1200 posts more than me" Henson

I appreciate what both of you are saying - I just feel there should be a set procedure for these kind of things. Not necessarily the one I posted - but not one made up by each moderator on the fly either!

That is kind of the idea of a charter or constitution isn't it?

Si

[geoffbeaumont]

Dear Mr "1200 posts more than me" Henson

I appreciate what both of you are saying - I just feel there should be a set procedure for these kind of things. Not necessarily the one I posted - but not one made up by each moderator on the fly either!

That is kind of the idea of a charter or constitution isn't it?

Si

Yes, that is the general idea of the charter.

Up to now the forum rules have just kind of happened. When it started out, this forum was only intended as a temporary bolt hole while the problems with the LRE forum were sorted out, so sitting down and thrashing out rules and regulations didn't seem important. In the same way, mods were the existing mods and I was technical admin simply because I was in a position to host the forum quickly and for free. Trevor (LR90) volunteered to help with this shortly afterwards as I was stupidly busy and struggling to keep up. We also needed to be able to take decisions and act on them quickly - something that 'democratic' processes have never been good at.

However, the forum became a permanent fixture and has now been around for several months, and we decided it was time we sat down and decided how it should be run. We've always said the forum belongs to its members, so that meant asking you.

A key thing to rembember here, though, is that we aren't trying to write an ideal - what we come up with needs to be realistic, so it must take into account the fact that the admins and mods are all volunteers with limited time to give (even Les, despite his post count...), and that some decisions, in order to be effective, need to be taken quickly. This means that routine moderation tasks need to be at the discretion of individual moderators, not require votes which take at best hours and sometimes days - even among the mods it's rare for a vote to include all moderators, for minor stuff it's normally just a consensus of those around at the time. It is perfectly reasonable to have a process for rolling back mod actions, though, which is partly why we have the Recycled forum, which contains all deleted posts.

Hope that gives some useful context?

[GBMUD]

OK, how about this then:

Delete all abusive, offensive, wholly innapropriate postings and stick then in the "recycle" forum as at present. Rather than deleting other posts which simply break the rules, 20 post rule, spam etc., move them to a visible "spam etc." forum of their own where members can visit and review them if they desire. If one or more members can offer good reasons why the post should remain in one or more of the regular forums then they can be moved back - for example where the post may offer genuine benefit to the forum members at large while not compromising the forum ethics, independance etc..

Not an ideal solution I am sure but the nearest I can come up with to a democratic process which allows time for representation/appeal without clogging the day to day operation of the forums.

Cheers

Chris

[geoffbeaumont]

OK, how about this then:

Delete all abusive, offensive, wholly innapropriate postings and stick then in the "recycle" forum as at present. Rather than deleting other posts which simply break the rules, 20 post rule, spam etc., move them to a visible "spam etc." forum of their own where members can visit and review them if they desire. If one or more members can offer good reasons why the post should remain in one or more of the regular forums then they can be moved back - for example where the post may offer genuine benefit to the forum members at large while not compromising the forum ethics, independance etc..

Not an ideal solution I am sure but the nearest I can come up with to a democratic process which allows time for representation/appeal without clogging the day to day operation of the forums.

Cheers

Chris

The trouble with that is that things like spam are still visible and may still attract a response and/or help a vendors search engine rankings (by providing a 'relevent' reference to their site), so it makes it worthwhile for people to spam the forum.

[will_warne]

Just my 2p worth. This is a difficult subject because the mods work VERY hard and too many rules could ruin this place. However, I think Si had some very good points; threads shouldn't be deleted if it can be avoided. I think only spam should go to the bin. Is there any way of stopping people with less than 20 posts posting in the classified forum? That'd stop a whole load of problems. That way, if they're interested in something for sale they can PM the seller instead of posting.

Post/threads that get offensive should be edited and locked accordingly but I don't think deleting's good even with an explanation. I've found a couple of times when things have kicked off I've come onto the forum to find an explanatory post but without the modified original to view its almost impossible to judge the severity of the crime and whether the mods have reacted appropriately.

[Glue]

Just my 2p worth. This is a difficult subject because the mods work VERY hard and too many rules could ruin this place. However, I think Si had some very good points; threads shouldn't be deleted if it can be avoided. I think only spam should go to the bin. Is there any way of stopping people with less than 20 posts posting in the classified forum? That'd stop a whole load of problems. That way, if they're interested in something for sale they can PM the seller instead of posting.

Just a quick one to say that on another forum I subscribe to, all adverts are vetted by the mods before being published on the board. That has two advantages, one it cuts down on the amount of choss that we see and secondly prevents all the problems we are seeing here.

Another thought is that it would then be possible to verify who the genuine sellers are as opposed to the commercial outfits. Maybe they could then be charged (via the forum's paypal account) before their ads are approved.

I appreciate that this may cause more work for a mod, but it may be worth considering. (Do we need a second classified Mod?)

Glue

[simonr]

Tell you what! I'd pay for access to the recycle forum!

Or is the 'recycle forum' just another name for ORRP?

I don't know if invision support this, but many forums have other classes of member other than 'guest', 'member', 'mod' and 'admin'

Could we introduce another one between guest & member which you get when you register. Give rights to read and post on everything bar the classifieds, which is read only. A member then applies to be upgraded.

Si

[western]

Or is the 'recycle forum' just another name for ORRP?

Nope, it's one of our's, just a storage bin instead of full deletion, when a post is removed from a thread the recycle bin is where it's stored

[will_warne]

I don't know if invision support this, but many forums have other classes of member other than 'guest', 'member', 'mod' and 'admin'

Could we introduce another one between guest & member which you get when you register. Give rights to read and post on everything bar the classifieds, which is read only. A member then applies to be upgraded.

Si

That was basicly what I was thinking except that it automaticly upgrades at 20 posts. It would certainly save a bit of work...

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Not sure my views will go down 100% but here goes :

I think we need to rememeber what the LR4x4 is was and how it came about,.....

The LRE "Debarcle" meant many of us would without Les Trev and Geoffs huge efforts not be here reading / typing / having this forum as it is today.

This mainly came about because the Forum was "1 flick of a switch" away from being closed by a petulant closed-minded individual, which was part of a 'business', .....we were "Guests" but without a formal "Invite".

When the old LRE forum "Pram 'N toys" throwing event kicked off, we were all nearly gone from what was an otherwise exellent forum.

At the time this was going on, the Mods of that site were frustrated, as they KNEW that what was happening was WRONG, yet they were powerless to stop it,

Les and the team took the only action really available, ...........and it was a gamble that worked out.

There is talk about how "We" the "members" 'own' this site, ...............

................er I would actually maybe shove a differing spin on this ?..............

We don't.................

What we have is an INDEPENDENT Forum, ...........

without the pechulant child anitic of being "ownded" by an owner with a seperate agenda,

this forum is without that, ...............and thrives to where it is today.

Yes the "members" can, and many have made Paypal contributions to the running of it, and this further gives a feeling of unity, but it is a 'www' based "Club" anyone can join, and we hope they do, the forum develops from its regular members and develops its own "Style" which may be different, and some may say better / worse than other sites, .............it is was it is ....and will evolve further with time and the membership.

As such the forum in my belief has the moderators to help maintain and keep it on the right track,

I think it is fair to say that even with the small number of mods we have, ALL do not ALWAYS agree on EVERTHING, but as our mods I think we should leave them alone to sort out what they think is right for the overall benifit of the forum, its members and the general good of LR4x4.com,

We may not always agree with what each and every mod does all the time, but I do belive that everything they do (and unpaid and for free to the Forum) should be accepted.

If we ask for everything to be plaxced to the vote, or poll, or discussed I think :

1. It will turn into a nightmare for the mods, ........inaction and delays.

2. If you think the mods do a good job - then let them do it, quietly and in the background, "Modding" is actually OT to the forum, ..............which is about all things LR - ............"Modding" is a 'by product'...... not the main reason for the forums existance.

3. If all the mods can't always agree, then just think of a poll or Vote, it will by its very nature make some happy and some not happy - not good.

4. Modding done quickly, without a vote / poll will be 99% ok 99% of the time, the other 1% you can either produce rules and regulations for, or not produce rules and regs and accept that everyone makes mistakes from time to time, and live with the 1%.

5. The 1% is also liable to be contentious, and thats the way life is, either live with it / mods decsion / actions, PM with a moan maybe, or let it go for the greater good of the forum

As such I think we should only have a few lines of the absolute fundemental basics rules that everyone should agree with, .....and if anyone doesn't agree with any of them then I would question if this is the right forum for them ?

For Example I would humbly suggest these as the basics "Commandments"

1. No foul language, lewdness, porn etc ('cept LR Porn that's fine.... almost mandatory )

2. No personal attacks inc flaming

.....(nasty as oposed to a ok leg pulling) as per another other site can't remeber which was a recent post here

3. If you would not wish your child to see / read it then its probably not acceptable to post

4. The mods have the full support of the members.... to take actions in what THEY THINK is right for the greater good of the members and the forum

5. No Spam, junk posts, or as now the sub 20 advert rules

I'm sure many could add more, .............my point is 'KISS' Keep It Simple *tupid

The less rules we have then the few that are the ones become more clear and mandatory ....

and may actually be read, ..............newbies are not going to trwal through 11005 rules and regs, they will just not do it - how many even now don't seem to be able to read the 20- posts or less rule

With something as simple and clear as the 5 basic rules above, maybe this could be flashed up on the screen on registration - then we don't have to hope they bother to read it, they will read them on registration, maybe a tickbox at the end of each line to say "I agree" ??

Nige

[simonr]

I don't think anybody is or has suggested taking a vote on everything - that, I agree would be daft.

I just cannot accept you assertion that we, the members, should be happy to have no control or say in the running of the forum, that the mods are ALWAYS RIGHT and if we don't like it, we should go elsewhere.

I'm not saying being a moderator is easy, or that they do not do a good job, or even that I want the nature of the forum to change - quite the opposite - but the administration must be accoutable to the membership.

I have a suspicion that most of your comment above is slightly skewed by your apparently being invited to be a moderator on the fabrication forum.

I would suggest that you thus have a vested interest in keeping the current status quo - and one could be forgiven for thinking, sucking up to the current administration. Easy when you can have your cake and eat it!

Before you jump in with one of your more vective replies - remember what it says in your sig - it applies here too.

Si

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Si,

Partly right, partly not, but 'Hugs' and all that no insult taken nor implied.

I think that too many rules and regs make for a nightmare, the mods are able to deal with 99% of stuff with the mosts basic of rules ?

Re the 5 I put, if everyone understood and accepted them it would be a huge start, and these would be the ones that will cause offence and forum degredation ?

Tool & Fab comment - Guilty as Charged !

Accountability is one thing, tieing the mods hands with rules regs polls and votes is prob another and would add to workload, not add much to the forum, but would prob IMHO Protect the spammers, and posters of "Debatable" situations, somewhere maybe in between is a poss ?

I do think the 5 basic rules on registartion for new members has some validity ?

Me suck up......

Thanks Si, that has cheered me up on what up to now has been a very unpleasant and miserable weekend as have some family probs that are only going to get worse ..........Ho Hum

Oh, you have a PM from me too, X Eng related before anyone jumps to conclusions !

Nige,

[Steve Hiatt]

I'm with HFH, well as a point of view at least

Keep it simple and don't paint it orange.

[TJ101]

Fully agree with Nige, as simple as possible, would surely help everyone,, BUT I can also see Si point !

If a thread is deleted my a Mod, rather that being wisked away into the recycle bin,, ( Like the orrp bit Si ) I think it should be locked, with the offending post/posts, edited, and the reason why, by the modifying Moderator !! This then could be appealed by the posting member to the full Admin/Moderator group

I have no problem with the OT threads,, to me,brings us all a bit closer together,and makes for a more friendly forum, so long as these are marked OT please, maybe a new section,, as most forum have them !!

[geoffbeaumont]

If a thread is deleted my a Mod, rather that being wisked away into the recycle bin,, ( Like the orrp bit Si ) I think it should be locked, with the offending post/posts, edited, and the reason why, by the modifying Moderator !! This then could be appealed by the posting member to the full Admin/Moderator group

Normal practice at the moment is to tell the poster by PM that their post has been deleted and why, so they already get a chance to appeal. I don't think this is always done with classifieds posts, particularly where they're blatant spam by users who've never posted elsewhere, mainly because of the volume of these.

[VeryDisco]

Nige - I don't want to offend, or upset you, but I agree wholeheartedly with you.

If we get rid of the OT threads, I won't be able to post - and neither will Mandy

[Hillbilly Raider]

not sure if you are with me or not Fi ?!

OT MOI? NEVER!