Forum Charter - your views required

[Guest mr_wuffles]

6. Dont mention Mr Wuffles

[geoffbeaumont]

6. Dont mention Mr Wuffles

Who? Never heard of him...

[simonr]

This may already have been covered somewhere, but....

Just about the only rule we currently have is the 20 post rule in the classified forum.

How does this square with that: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=5514???

It seems that the poster only has one post and is blatently commercial. I know Lawrence - so sorry if this puts your nose out of joint, it's not personal.

OK, he's offered to support the forum - but I don't understand how this can be OK, particularly when there was so much fuss about someone in Ireland (possibly) advertising vehicles commercially on the forum.

They are both of similar potential benefit to members.

It just seems that even the most absolute, unarguable, concrete rule - one which justifies the mods flaming people - in other circumstances is 'flexible'.

Why?

[LR90]

Si, maybe I've missed something but this is in the Getting out there forum and not Classified?

[simonr]

Si, maybe I've missed something but this is in the Getting out there forum and not Classified?

Sorry, you are right - my mistake. The commercial aspect still applies though.

Si

[white90]

Well after a few msg's

Lawrence advises me this is not a money making venture and has offered discount to lr4x4 members attending.

if people don't run days out then thats everyone stuffed who wants to go to pay/play

funny as all the positive/complaints have come from the same area by people who all know each other well/very well.

but want us to decide.

"for sale" is Rogues dept not mine thank goodness.

[Holyzeus]

In my book this dont count whether its money making or not, the more places to play the better

[GBMUD]

the more places to play the better

I agree. Totally.

And the more competition in the parts market the better too, as prices will come down. Let's encourage advertising by all the parts suppliers - I for one need some new rear springs, perhaps Scorpion again? Or OME? Lets see who advertisies the cheapest ones... I have to get the cheque book out for springs as I do not have the tech to wind my own.

On the other hand, this could get out of hand. There may end up more adverts than "genuine" members posts. If there is one rule for Scorpion, Frog Island, D44 or any other business etc then it must apply to all businesses or profit making organisations. Where will the line be drawn? Who will decide where it is to be drawn and most of all, who will umpire it?

"You cannot be serious, the ball was in!" John McEnroe

Chris

[Mark90]

Ok here's a suggestion, as the 20 post rule is a bit arbitary and easy to get around (just make 20 posts ) how about the classifieds section is split into trade/commecial section and a private ads section. Just a thought. Although I doubt we'll be inundated with ads from Scorpion

Just to add to that, I don't think this would affect the forums 'independance' it's not a tie up with any given commercial concern it's just allowing those that want to be able to advertise their wares to users of this forum, and in a relevant section that people can choose to look at or ignore based on their personal choice.

[AndyC]

I've seen a variety of forums go through debates like this.

My thoughts:

Essentially the quality of any "contributed" forum is a function of three things:

1) Sensible moderators. You ain't gotta be perfect, you just have to be fair. Delete spam, delete offensive stuff, and everything else stays even if the poster is an ignorant [expletive delete]. Moderators being unfair will get spotted pretty quickly.

2) Sensible users. If everyone is posting rubbish, the forum will be rubbish. That's not the problem here. In fact, when I first saw this forum, my reaction was "oh, no, not another forum, that's the last thing we need". But I've returned now it's grown, and it seems to be one of the better ones.

3) Keeping out the spammers. It's a necessary evil these days, and an important role. I'd be tighter on people posting any kind of advertising without a forum contribution in the past, and I'd also consider further measures (e.g., verification of member requests from some countries).

Having said all of that, I think this forum is pretty well run so far.

One other idea might be to have a group of judges - perhaps a group of 10 or so people who aren't moderators, but who can review decisions made by moderators if there is a dispute.

Final thought: take a look at Wikipedia, and some of their policy decisions and processes. They are a good example of an excellent resource built against some fairly hostile input at times.

Andy

[DefcoL]

Sorry, you are right - my mistake. The commercial aspect still applies though.

Si

Hi this is a none personal reply in my defence

To explain:

Fairys1 is not Lawrence; it is in fact the other half of Rusper site.

He like I was under the impression that the getting out there forum was not subject to the 20 post rule.

We also viewed the title as inviting members (New or old) to inform others about what is out there to do.

In reality Rusper (our site) had been the subject of many more than 20 posts in the past, so Bob did not see any problem in letting you all know the site is again available..... The problem was that I was not available to inform him of the log in details so he started a new one for himself.

I My self 'Lawrence' log on as Bandl = Bob and Lawrence, and find the site very interesting, I hope that I have not posted any rubbish as I tend to think an answer should be contributory to the forum members.

With regard to that point Here is a part of what I replied to admin

“Bob and I use this site to offer your users an available venue for them to play.

We of course will be interested in supporting this very informative site and would still have joined if there had been a fee for doing so as that would make it fair to all.

I have not made a single penny from the Rusper site and remain heavily out of pocket for every day it has been available. This might change if we can get the attendance numbers up.

We have not come on here to sell items but rather to offer a service to your users”.

I do hope that this site and its members can embrace people like Bob and myself as we are not here To sell items for profit but we do organise and run a site that is not only 4x4’s but that part of it surly is to the benefit of you all. if a discount to members breaks the rules then we will withdraw the offending offer…

Peace and respect to all…………..

[AndyC]

We have not come on here to sell items but rather to offer a service to your users”.

If you're asking for money in return for the service, then you're selling. I think the line should be drawn between personal sales and a business. I'm happy for people to post spares/vehicles that are for sale, but I think commercial advertising should be excluded unless it's someone unrelated to the business recommending a good service or product, or in return for a discount for members.

IMHO, if you've got more than one (OK, one set of wheels, for example) to sell, it's commercial.

Can/should we make it a policy than any commercial advertiser will be assumed to be offering a 20% discount to forum members?

[DefcoL]

IMHO, if you've got more than one (OK, one set of wheels, for example) to sell, it's commercial.

Can/should we make it a policy than any commercial advertiser will be assumed to be offering a 20% discount to forum members?

...."one set of wheels, for example) to sell, it's commercial"....

Does that mean the members will have to place 4 adds of 1 wheel to sell 4 wheels they are trying to up grade or even just get their money back? Remember even a loss can be viewed as commercial…

How many times can you place an add (different items) before it becomes commercial?

"Can/should we make it a policy than any commercial advertiser will be assumed to be offering a 20% discount to forum members?"

That would surely just drive prices up in the classifieds, sounds like self-destruct. . If a venue site rent /costs can not be covered the such site would have to close... I see how that may be the aim of interested parties..

but is that truly in the interest of members who like to use their 4x4? my view would be that it is not.

I have two 4x4’s a 110 200tdi with PTO winch and a 300tdi disco with electric winch, both used for the only hobby I have. I visit other sites and enjoy them but of course I regularly need to get bits for them both.

I would prefer to get them from the forum as then I can ask other members what they think….

Re: other sites is that not what the getting out there section is about?

Like this nanny state we live in, too much policy kills freedom of speech. I’m English and proud of it

Peace to all fellow humans

[Les Henson]

Perhaps you two ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ might consider the rather important fact that several hundred other forum members would appear to quite happy with how things are right now. However, your comments are appreciated, but maybe not ad-nauseum.

Les.

[DefcoL]

Perhaps you two ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ might consider the rather important fact that several hundred other forum members would appear to quite happy with how things are right now. However, your comments are appreciated, but maybe not ad-nauseum.

Les.

did you mean "two" as in last three posts? be assured that my comments were absit iniuria verbis

[Happyoldgit]

Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum viditur.

[DefcoL]

Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum viditur.

isto é muito verdadeiro (not latin)

[Paul Wightman]

Perhaps you two ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ might consider the rather important fact that several hundred other forum members would appear to quite happy with how things are right now. However, your comments are appreciated, but maybe not ad-nauseum.

Les.

Well said Les (bugger I agreed with him! ).

Mr 5 posts AndyC , As far as 28x7 (Rusper) is concerned I DO have a personal interest, it’s on my doorstep!

Best we chuck the calendar………. 28X4 fun day, CSW Challenge, Kirton Quarry Ultimate Playday, CSW Challenge Comp - ........blatant advertising?

Or perhaps just informing us of events we may be interested in.

Should Billing be mentioned? Some on this forum stand to benefit financially from it.

Those who class adds for items for sale by traders with notification of forthcoming events really do want a rule book the size of Hampshire.

It was the members who wanted a calendar after all.

[TJ101]

I am one of the "several Hundred" who are happy as we are,

I can see no problem, with the likes of BandL1 etc, posting "adds" if that's what you want to call them on the getting out forum!, whether they make a profit or not, all venues that accept us to "play" in charge us for the privilege, surely the more venue's we have the better,,

As Paul says, the calendar is made up of events, but I can not see any "free" ones !! we all pay a entry fee to try and cover the cost to rent that few acres of land, all motorsport is the same

[bishbosh]

I agree.

Advertising venues and events should not be subject to the 20 posts rule. As Tim says, the more sites and events the better, especially as the number of Green Lanes etc is going to rapidly fall in the coming years (with all probability)

[istruggle2gate11]

I agree.

Advertising venues and events should not be subject to the 20 posts rule. As Tim says, the more sites and events the better, especially as the number of Green Lanes etc is going to rapidly fall in the coming years (with all probability)

Personally, I think this is one of the best moderated forums out in the ether, some are terrible, inconsistant and bias. This one is not, lets remember that I doubt 1200+ users will virtually never agree together.

Perhaps I should let sleeping dogs sleep, as I have not yet been mentioned, some of you may remember the post regarding advertising a few weeks back.

For those of you who dont know, I am one of eight who have managed to Re-open Kirton Quarry, and when I say re-open, read months of hard work, solicitors letters etc. I too will be out of pocket for a very very long time, again the biggest drive being getting the place re-opened for enthusiasts by enthusiasts, sadly we have to charge entry - or again, another great big off road site would be dormant, gentle advertising on this forum helps not only us keeping the gates open, but other off roaders, it gives CHOICE. If this forum were to be moderated heavily, choices become limited, and yet another forum break off would eventually start.

I know opinions are only as good as the information provided, but Kirton Quarry wouldnt keep my family in clothes, never mind a mortgage, Im still working hard and doing the quarry in my spare time, it could never be classed as commercial, the key reason to it being a company is insurance and providing a stable image.

Fortunately for me, I was a member on here way before I even knew Kirton would become a reality, so I feel able to argue this point as well.

I have spoken to the relevant mods and will endeavor to keep any posts sensible,I have made a contribution to the forum upkeep (more will come as things get better) and I am in the process of devising a sensible and practicable discount scheme for forum members.

Perhaps one suggestion could be that those of us who have contributed to the forum gain a little automatic "paid for" symbol in our sigs or similar?

Not sure if you could class the example of more than one set of wheels as commercial, I could walk into my shed now and decide to sell over 30 wheels and tyres, multiple V8s etc etc.

[dirtydiesel]

I am one of the "several Hundred" who are happy as we are,

I can see no problem, with the likes of BandL1 etc, posting "adds" if that's what you want to call them on the getting out forum!, whether they make a profit or not, all venues that accept us to "play" in charge us for the privilege, surely the more venue's we have the better,,

As Paul says, the calendar is made up of events, but I can not see any "free" ones !! we all pay a entry fee to try and cover the cost to rent that few acres of land, all motorsport is the same

My thoughts are as above really.

[AndyC]

Mr 5 posts AndyC ,

No-one said that a particular number of posts was a requirement to voice an opinion

I tend to have a very split view - a site is either commercial or it isn't. It's often hard to define the difference unambiguously, particularly when there is so no clear "advertiser/club member" distinction, and also when the members are often involved in commercial enterprises related to the hobby.

My comments may have been a little provocative, but I was hoping to create a little more of a constructive comments than "slagging off the newbie". That's OK. I've got a thick skin.

I actually like the site enough to spend time reading and (occasionally) posting here. For a forum site to get my attention at all, it has to be of a very high standard because I generally find web based forums much more time consuming to read than e-mail based ones - that probably reflects my involvement in online communites pre-dating the web as we know it as much as anything else. But there is enough information of value here that I do choose to visit as time permits, and when looking for information.

Moderating any kind of community is a thankless task, and both my impression, and the apparent majority view says that the moderators here are doing a good job, and the volume of posts says it all.

Keep up the good work, and if the consensus is for the smallest rule book possible, that works for me.

[Paul Wightman]

Sorry Andy, I didn't mean to bite your head off but this situation has come about following events over a fair few months.

Let's wait and see the draft charter.