Jump to content

X Brake pads


streaky

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, elbekko said:

I upgraded to an X-brake to have more ground clearance after I split my transfer case getting hung up on a rock.

It works well, my only complaint is that it seems to be difficult to adjust it so it's both not rubbing while driving, yet still locks solid. Sometimes I wonder if I've just mounted something wrong if nobody else has this problem?

There seems to be two adjustments - one is on the cable and the other is on the bracket that the cable mounts to - from memory I think the latter can be moved a fair bit and tightened up in different positions that can affect the adjustment on the cable. I am not sure i have explained that well but I had a bit of fiddling to get that right. I found I had to accept a very very slight rub to get enough cable to tighten up (i.e. you can hear it just as you turn the disc but there is no binding at all and it moves freely - i guess the pads are just off of the disc really and touch slight imperfections on the disc itself which is what i hear).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, reb78 said:

There seems to be two adjustments - one is on the cable and the other is on the bracket that the cable mounts to - from memory I think the latter can be moved a fair bit and tightened up in different positions that can affect the adjustment on the cable. I am not sure i have explained that well but I had a bit of fiddling to get that right. I found I had to accept a very very slight rub to get enough cable to tighten up (i.e. you can hear it just as you turn the disc but there is no binding at all and it moves freely - i guess the pads are just off of the disc really and touch slight imperfections on the disc itself which is what i hear).

That's pretty much how I have it adjusted now. Glad I'm not alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/4/2021 at 2:51 PM, Cornish Rattler said:

What i've always found with a series landy is when applying the hand brake it tends to lift the gearbox up before the hand brake holds, i am currently running an X brake on my 2a and i don't get that problem anymore as it does away with the arm that swivels on the pin on the chassis which i think was levering the gearbox up in the first place, but i love my X brake 🙂

The transmission should get lifted, but it does get pulled forwards a fair bit.  That why I keep recommending Series owners fit the longitudinal tie rod between chassis and bell housing, like Stephen (Anderzander) did recently on his SI (he posted a parts diagram of it) - it stops that movement almost entirely, so the whole of the lever and rod movement go into moving the brake shoes.  It makes the brake extremely effective and minimises the required lever movement, saving the gaiter in the process.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/1/2021 at 1:36 PM, pat_pending said:

I've always thought the disc hand brake was an expensive solution looking for a problem.

That's exactly true!  If you don't have a problem, there's no point in fixing it!  (a bit like drilling holes in your head ;) )

A long time ago, I had an SV90 - and the OE handbrake worked perfectly.  I waited & waited for it to fail before fitting an X-Brake, but it never did.  I sold it with the OE brake (but the buyer wanted an X-Brake as part of the deal!).

I replaced it with a 3 year old 110 which had the whole brake replaced under warranty twice - and still didn't work.  I took that as a sign that I should buy it!

It seems that some come out the factory with a brake that works perfectly and never need 'fixing' and others that are rubbish.  I never figured out the reason!

The method of stopping it rattling by bolting the pads in place works the best.  I tried to get the caliper modified, but the manufacturer (Hayes Brake) forbade me from selling the brake modified as such.  I even came up with a neat spring clip which forces the pads apart, against their seats.  Hayes wouldn't even allow that.  I did however pass on the bolting method to anybody who asked - I just couldn't sell one pre-modified.

Si

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a lot of the problems with the coiler hand brakes are caused by poor electrical contact of the engine earth, so the starter earths through the hand brake cable and melts the Teflon coating.  From then on, the increased stiffness prevents good brake engagement.  More obvious is contamination of the shoes by mud or grease and oil - it’s amazing how many of us tolerate minor leaks and view them as a characteristic rather than a fault that needs fixing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW - as I can see that there are lots of 'old hands' posting on this thread - I fitted one of these about 19 years ago. I've barely looked at it since, and it just works. 

I say 'about' 19 years as I don't know when it first came on the market, but I don't think it was long after I bought the car about Yr 2000.

The original handbrake used to just 'catch' coming to a halt. Checked it over a few times trying to adjust it and then just fitted the X brake. 

It gets excess grease from the prop UJ thrown at it, but it just works. There must have been a period of 10 years or so there, when the kids were younger and I had less time that it was barely looked at, beyond perhaps adjusting the cable for an Mot - but still gave no issues.

It might be a spendy piece of kit (though not the worst) but £/mile for me it's been excellent value. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On one off roading day, a convoy of us all parked at the top of a hill to go and look at an obstacle in front, at the bottom. We'd all make our judgments and then go back to our vehicles.

I got back to my car to find a Jeep CJ-something-or-other embedded in the rear of it. The handbrake had failed (admittedly I don't know what type they have) and it had rolled down towards the group of ten of us, silently accelerating so none of us would have had a clue it was coming. I'm not sure what Euro NCAP pedestrian safety rating a 1960s Jeep has but I'm guessing it's in the "not good" range.

By sheer luck my car caught it after a few meters and prevented the worst, owing to it being in-gear and the wheels turned away from the slope but it was definitely something that made me appreciate why people upgrade their handbrake. I'd only just had mine apart after it filled with mud and then froze, pulling a lining off a shoe.  I had just replaced everything and adjusted it so it was at full effectiveness but if I were doing any amount of serious off roading any more, it would be the first thing I'd change.

There was no damage to either car but I was not too happy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That reminds me …. I fitted mine on my old 90 after I had an incident where, I’d had a leak from the back of the transfer box that had as yet no outwards signs … but was enough to cause the handbrake to fail at the end of a steep climb up a fell.

I’d just cleared some quite challenging rocks, where as well as being steep it had been slipping and moving around a bit. Got past the rocks - pulled the handbrake on and jumped out … my friend said ‘you’re moving’ …. I thought he said ‘you were moving’,  so I said something like ‘yeah - slipping around a bit there’  - more urgently he said - ‘No !!! You’re moving’ pointing over my shoulder. 

It was at that point I had to run after my 90 and jump in as it was making its way back towards the rocks.

Funny to recount it -  but that could have ended very badly. I did the seal and bought an x-brake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I used to passenger in ARC and AWDC trials I noticed than in scrutineering all vehicles had to hold on  45 deg slope. All the LR drivers in both events used the same technique, drive up and ise the foot brake to dig the front wheels in. Why, because they had zero expectation in the handbrake holding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Anderzander said:

That reminds me …. I fitted mine on my old 90 after I had an incident where, I’d had a leak from the back of the transfer box that had as yet no outwards signs … but was enough to cause the handbrake to fail at the end of a steep climb up a fell.

A similar story is how the X-Brake came to be in the first place!  We were driving along the Gap road and stopped for tea.  One of my friend's 110 (Guy) rolled backwards & stoved in his back door & IIRC someone elses wing.  Knowing my handbrake was useless, I'd left it wedged against a rock.  There was a certain amount of 'why doesn't someone invent a better handbrake?'  Both Paul Wightman (remember him?) & I made our own versions.  Then a couple of years later, when we were on a ferry to France someone (Big Pete) asked if I'd make him a disk handbrake.  I agreed - but it spread by word of mouth until a month later I'd had almost 500 requests for similar!  My job had started to suck - so I resigned & started X-Eng.  Funny how things work out.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, simonr said:

A similar story is how the X-Brake came to be in the first place!  We were driving along the Gap road and stopped for tea.  One of my friend's 110 (Guy) rolled backwards & stoved in his back door & IIRC someone elses wing.  Knowing my handbrake was useless, I'd left it wedged against a rock.  There was a certain amount of 'why doesn't someone invent a better handbrake?'  Both Paul Wightman (remember him?) & I made our own versions.  Then a couple of years later, when we were on a ferry to France someone (Big Pete) asked if I'd make him a disk handbrake.  I agreed - but it spread by word of mouth until a month later I'd had almost 500 requests for similar!  My job had started to suck - so I resigned & started X-Eng.  Funny how things work out.

110 which is now owned by Retroanaconda? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/31/2021 at 11:00 AM, reb78 said:

Interesting. Mine was third hand when I bought it. I think its been on my 110 about 11 years, I stuck the pads on with silicone when I first installed it, might have adjusted it twice in that time and have never changed the pads so goodness knows how old they are! They dont wear as you only put the handbrake on when stopped... odd that he has had these problems but I suspect something isnt right there...

I fitted one to my 110, went according to the book. It would heat up and jam on, and several times I'd to stop at the roadside and disconnect it in order to get home. Finally stripped it completely and refitted it. Same again. Had one more go but no use. I contacted X-Eng for advice and followed it, got a mate to assist and check it over. Same problem happened again.

We ended up coming the conclusion that the problem was too much end-float on the output shaft (newly refurbed boxes from Ashcrofts) and although VERY minor & maybe even within tolerances was sufficient to create some friction in the handbrake which increased as it got hotter.

Eventually I had to remove it, revert to drum (which works fine) and the disc was sold on here with a full explanation of my reasons for selling and offer of money back if it was a problem for the buyer (although X-Eng offered to take it back themselves). Cant recall who bought it, but its apparently been fine and dandy so I was just very unlucky.

The brake itself was hunky dory, worked like a charm, but it seems that some vehicles just wont accept it without it creating some issues.

On 8/4/2021 at 2:02 PM, elbekko said:

I upgraded to an X-brake to have more ground clearance after I split my transfer case getting hung up on a rock.

It works well, my only complaint is that it seems to be difficult to adjust it so it's both not rubbing while driving, yet still locks solid. Sometimes I wonder if I've just mounted something wrong if nobody else has this problem?

See above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a useful post John. I've just had my gearbox back from a refurb, and it hadn't occurred to me that subtle differences like that could make a difference to the handbrake. I haven't had any issues, and it's been over a month now, so I guess I'm OK, but it's information that's worth tucking away 'just in case'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was a real pain. I loved the brake and the simplicity of it for its holding power, but try as I might I could not get it to work on any run longer than a few miles. Once warm it started to judder and then it was game over.  The problem with such fine tolerances is that they're good until they're not in your favour!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder where the problem lies? Is it thar there is too much adjustment possible?

Or that car rear wheel hubs have better tolerances than LR transfer boxes?

Honda used disk handbrakes on the 2005 Civics and others, Rover used disk handbrakes (jaguar must have on the inboard disks?) so the idea is not impossible but others have internal shoes for them, LR use drums for the D3 and D4 I assume D5 aswell?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've not seen an X Brake up close but I think from pictures the bracket bolts to the casing if I'm not mistaken. If what @Jocklandjohn says above is true then any variation in output shaft location may mean the pads don't locate evenly. The drum based setup by its very design means that any longitudinal variance in the output shaft to casing is irrelevant.

It's also an inherent feature of drum based setups that the more leverage is put on once the pads are applied they should (if designed and assembled correctly) bind up with even more force.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny to read how the X=Brake came to be..

I have an Hybrid Handbrake on the Hybrid...

Cable operated Series Drum and it works very, very well and the lever is waay out of the way.

...and in the Alps / serious slopes one should park with a chock behind a wheel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

I've not seen an X Brake up close but I think from pictures the bracket bolts to the casing if I'm not mistaken. If what @Jocklandjohn says above is true then any variation in output shaft location may mean the pads don't locate evenly. The drum based setup by its very design means that any longitudinal variance in the output shaft to casing is irrelevant.

It's also an inherent feature of drum based setups that the more leverage is put on once the pads are applied they should (if designed and assembled correctly) bind up with even more force.

My X brake fit is in our tech archive https://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/10846-x-brake-pto-type/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The x-brake caliper is able to slide along two delrin(?) posts, so any longitudinal variation will easily be taken up with that. 

I had a small binding issue, but only when I was going for 3 clicks on the RRC handbrake lever, once I accepted that it needed more movement than that, I never had an issue again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

The x-brake caliper is able to slide along two delrin(?) posts, so any longitudinal variation will easily be taken up with that. 

I had a small binding issue, but only when I was going for 3 clicks on the RRC handbrake lever, once I accepted that it needed more movement than that, I never had an issue again. 

They’re steel from memory. As I made them up in a single piece with the other part from Ali. As you say, that movement would take up any misalignment of the output shaft/disc position. 

Your mention of the 3 clicks has merit… if people are aiming for that it might be starting too close to the disk and get the rubbing when it’s off. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mmgemini said:

Three clicks was an MOD demand, I worked for a FORD main dealer in the 1970's and had to set H/B at between 4 and 7 clicks, until the twin wheel Transit had to be tested a the MOT testing station unlike the MOT garage. SO the testing staion was failing them, FORD then sent a Technical Sevice Bullitan to all fitters. IF your Transit fails MOT for to many clicks. return to workshop and remove H/Blever, Proceed to grindston and remove the first pauls fom the assy then refit. This now gave three clicks at the lever

That is one TSB that I wish I had kept

I like that! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy