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Bored housewife


GBMUD

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I have been getting frustrated with domestic duties and I am looking for a way to get out and earn a little money while having fun at the same time - and not joining the 9-5 wage slaves! Spurred on by Mandy's Alpine Adventures, I wondered if I might be able to offer something similar on a smaller scale in the UK - Salisbury Plain or Mid-Wales for example.

I wondered if anyone here has ever been on a "paid for" green lane trip and had any information or impressions that I might find useful. What did you expect? Did the trip deliver? How might it have been better/what would you have liked do do that you didn't? Can anyone point me to anywhere I might find out more about it - ie., the competition. ;)

With the growth of road legal quads/off-road type buggie-cars I wondered if there might be a market there too - although I suspect I might do better to ask elsewhere about that! :)

Your views welcomed.

Chris

Mods: If you think this might be better off in the Getting Out There forum I will not be too upset, just hoped for more attention here.

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Just after I bought my first Land Rover I went on an 'Off-Road Training Weekend', I think with LRO.

First day was in a small quarry, and a couple of hours in a classroom, then small tutored groups within the confines of the quarry and some fields. Second day was green laning. Gentle stuff though as I suppose they have to cater for all tastes. Both days were ok, and the weekend was cheap - £40 for the Saturday, and then £20 for the greenlaning on the Sunday if you wanted to do that as well.

Les. :)

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I have been getting frustrated with domestic duties

How about Yoga or Tennis lessons ;););)

Seriously, how about phoning these guys..Kankku you won't be in competition as they concentrate on lake District and I'm sure they could give you good advice.

Cheers

Steve

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Just after I bought my first Land Rover I went on an 'Off-Road Training Weekend', I think with LRO.

First day was in a small quarry, and a couple of hours in a classroom, then small tutored groups within the confines of the quarry and some fields. Second day was green laning. Gentle stuff though as I suppose they have to cater for all tastes. Both days were ok, and the weekend was cheap - £40 for the Saturday, and then £20 for the greenlaning on the Sunday if you wanted to do that as well.

Les. :)

I used to be a instructor on those courses with VC of LRO but my racing took over

you need some land really as Green laning is so up PC these days.

you will need to be trained by Borda or Lantra

Lantra is more up to date but harder to get which is why it is better it is also required if you want to teach for anyone worth there salt.

I have done a little instructor work recently for Mitsubishi but as British off road champion along side there own man who also a British champion and I learned allot from him as he is a very good friend of mine.

My LRE instructor stuff ran out years ago and I must get round to re-doing it.

be care-full there are a lot of cowboys very willing to take your money.

I know people that are instructors that I would not trust to run a bath let along train a group of novices how to drive off road.

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Guest diesel_jim
I have done a little instructor work recently for Mitsubishi but as British off road champion along side there own man who also a British champion and I learned allot from him as he is a very good friend of mine.

Jules.... do you know Doug Hill? (from Swindon), he does a lot of mitsi training. he keeps trying to get me to do it,but i can't get the time off work!

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Yoga or tennis not really my thing Steve, thanks though. :)

you need some land really as Green laning is so up PC these days.

you will need to be trained by Borda or Lantra

Lantra is more up to date but harder to get which is why it is better it is also required if you want to teach for anyone worth there salt.

Thanks Jules. Yes, I know greenlanes can be a problem but I am really not interested in training. Depending on who you ask you need to be an ADI in order to offer training - even off-road. I have done some informal off-road training and hated every minute of it, I just do not have the patience I think. I will stick to greenlanes and try to avoid controvercy. Salisbury Plain is quite good for that. :)

Chris

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I will stick to greenlanes and try to avoid controvercy. Salisbury Plain is quite good for that.

Generating controvercy or avoiding? :lol:

I think that after NERC stamps it's 'little' foot Landmarc/DE/MOD will use that as a bigger reason to get a lot of public vehicular use off SPTA (look on the latest OS Land Ranger to see how many of the commonly used unsurfaced RoW on the Plain are not BOAT's and will probably be unusable after that date-existing applications pending).

I would be nervous of starting any business which uses what is now a dwindling resource as it's main 'collaterol' :( As Jules mentioned offroad driver training in dedicated areas is the only areas I can see a possible expanding business opertunity. All the Chelsea 'tractors' will have to find somewhere to go to get muddy? :)

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Jules.... do you know Doug Hill? (from Swindon), he does a lot of mitsi training. he keeps trying to get me to do it,but i can't get the time off work!

I may do by sight but not name.

I also could not get time off to do the new L200 press release.

The name ring's a bell

my mate is Colin Read (no relation)

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Yoga or tennis not really my thing Steve, thanks though. :)

Thanks Jules. Yes, I know greenlanes can be a problem but I am really not interested in training. Depending on who you ask you need to be an ADI in order to offer training - even off-road. I have done some informal off-road training and hated every minute of it, I just do not have the patience I think. I will stick to greenlanes and try to avoid controvercy. Salisbury Plain is quite good for that. :)

Chris

It can be a laugh sometimes but as you say others are mind blowing to try to teach others.

I did a load or Rally international people and some conrico people as well.

but I stopped training in 2001 so it has been a while.

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Well whatever you decide to do, I for one wish you well with it.

However I personally can't imagine actually having to pay twice to go greenlaning. I'm quite envious that you have decided to buck the trend and stop being a wage slave, fair play to you.

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Generating controvercy or avoiding? :lol:

I think that after NERC stamps it's 'little' foot Landmarc/DE/MOD will use that as a bigger reason to get a lot of public vehicular use off SPTA (look on the latest OS Land Ranger to see how many of the commonly used unsurfaced RoW on the Plain are not BOAT's and will probably be unusable after that date-existing applications pending).

I would be nervous of starting any business which uses what is now a dwindling resource as it's main 'collaterol' :( As Jules mentioned offroad driver training in dedicated areas is the only areas I can see a possible expanding business opertunity. All the Chelsea 'tractors' will have to find somewhere to go to get muddy? :)

The very reason we are working abroad.

GBmud YOU ARE MORE THAN WELCOME to tag along with one of our trips if you wish?

Bored housewife? not me! too many lanes i havent driven yet!! :)

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Chris,

It's quite simple to get round all the grief of liability et al.

Firstly there are three recognised training structures:

BORDA - ONLY FOR RECREATIONAL USERS

NPTC - Recreational and Utilty

LANTRA - Recreational and Utility

LANTRA is the oldest and the best AND IS THE ONLY ONE WITH HSE APPROVAL

Land Rover Experience doesn't and never has had HSE approval, or approval by any insurance companies except Land Rover themselves. The Land Rover instructor course was only ever intended for Land Rovers own staff or those at the experiences - depsite this many 'courses' were sold off to unsuspecting individuals.

You don't need any instructors ticket to take out greenlaners on organised tours. In fact it would be illegal and in contravention of Road Traffic Act if you did instruct on a greenlane UNLESS you held an ADI's ticket and insurances.

Being a qualified professional off road driver is a good idea - that means LANTRA - and having a ticket for Winching (Health and safety and risk management in winching) as you are working on a public right of way.

Guided tours, provision of guided books containing ACURATE information are all okay but when you take money for providing them you accept the liability of any and all damage/injury/trespass. So what you do is 'recomend' 'suggest' 'inform' and provide a recovery service/nursemaid hence the qualification to justify your abilities to any doubters.

I am a LANTRA instructor and training provider for lots fo things including off road driving and winching, I am also a BORDA part 1 instructor. I was a Land Rover Experience Senior Instructor in off road driving, winching (the first in the UK) and trailer handling, but I left when LRE lost it's way. I am also approved by Toyota and one or two other Japanese car companies and one German car company. I have taught safe off road vehicle operation in one form or another to over 4000 people since 1990, including government agencies, international companies, the British Army/Navy/Air Force, the French armed forces, private individuals, rock stars, film stars and one or two numpties. I am not touting for work but I do know the law.

Love and kisses

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Chris,

It's quite simple to get round all the grief of liability et al.

Firstly there are three recognised training structures:

BORDA - ONLY FOR RECREATIONAL USERS

NPTC - Recreational and Utilty

LANTRA - Recreational and Utility

LANTRA is the oldest and the best AND IS THE ONLY ONE WITH HSE APPROVAL

Land Rover Experience doesn't and never has had HSE approval, or approval by any insurance companies except Land Rover themselves. The Land Rover instructor course was only ever intended for Land Rovers own staff or those at the experiences - depsite this many 'courses' were sold off to unsuspecting individuals.

You don't need any instructors ticket to take out greenlaners on organised tours. In fact it would be illegal and in contravention of Road Traffic Act if you did instruct on a greenlane UNLESS you held an ADI's ticket and insurances.

Being a qualified professional off road driver is a good idea - that means LANTRA - and having a ticket for Winching (Health and safety and risk management in winching) as you are working on a public right of way.

Guided tours, provision of guided books containing ACURATE information are all okay but when you take money for providing them you accept the liability of any and all damage/injury/trespass. So what you do is 'recomend' 'suggest' 'inform' and provide a recovery service/nursemaid hence the qualification to justify your abilities to any doubters.

I am a LANTRA instructor and training provider for lots fo things including off road driving and winching, I am also a BORDA part 1 instructor. I was a Land Rover Experience Senior Instructor in off road driving, winching (the first in the UK) and trailer handling, but I left when LRE lost it's way. I am also approved by Toyota and one or two other Japanese car companies and one German car company. I have taught safe off road vehicle operation in one form or another to over 4000 people since 1990, including government agencies, international companies, the British Army/Navy/Air Force, the French armed forces, private individuals, rock stars, film stars and one or two numpties. I am not touting for work but I do know the law.

Love and kisses

Thanks Dave, lots to think about. I am pretty keen to avoid needing any official training - I will hope that experience gets me by. :) I have no intention of offering to train anyone so I will avoid the need to be an ADI or to have any BORDA, NTSC, LANTRA etc. certificates. I will not be taking Joe Public on any greenlane that I think he may need to be recovered from anyway so I hope that the situation will never arise.

I know that I need to be certain sure about routes too. Best I can really do is to make regular checks and build relationships with CC ROW departments - not the easiest of tasks as I have found in the past.

Cheers

Chris

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just a thought... but a bit of lateral thinking here...

i bought a photography mag the other week (Digital Photo, i think) and it had loads of adds in the back for people running nature photography courses, landscape photography courses, etc...

all these people seam to be doing is getting punters together, taking them out, offering a little light advice and collecting money...

i guess it could be the same for a greenlane day... i cant see why you'd be any different to a tour guide walking a small group of people around central london.... if people want to pay for you to lead them around, and witter away over the CB then it can't be breaking any laws...

you must need some sort of insurance... <_<

its basically what LRO do on their 'wild wales' weekends, guide people around green lanes... their trips are well organised, interesting, and a laugh... probably a little tame for those with a bit of experience, but thats not the market they are realy catering for...

there was a company called Kent4x4 who ran guided greenlane trips over the north downs, but i'm not sure they are around anymore..

i reckon you could get it to work, if you got a tie-up with one of the magazines you'd be laughing all the way to the bank.... B)

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you might not need insurance legally, but if you are running a business you should have basic public liability insurance... and make sure your vehicle insurance covers what you are doing...

i reckon it could work though....

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What you need is Third Party Liability and Personal Liability. All the vehicles must have insurance so public liability is taken care of but Chris would be leading them so is classed as being in charge/responsible for the group so he needs to cover his ar*e incase someone does something stupid to a thrid party and doesn't have the insurance to cover it AND he needs a small junk of personal liability to cover his potential cock ups (he doesn't need Professional Liability because he is not pertaining to be a professional)

First Aid is good - make sure it is a four day in the work place type with added paediatrics (Bicton College about 38 quid and you get to eye up the totty on equestrian courses)

You also need to write a risk assesment (method only, not specific) and an emergency proceedures plan. All very simple and easy peasey.

Next on the list is an ACCEPTANCE form - to be signed by the partcipating parties - ie: I accept that there is the potential for blah blah death, disfiguration, disease etc blah blah

I think the biggest problem with this is the over use of Wiltshire RoW at present which will get worse once NERC is finally up and running. I have a few ideas about that if you want to PM me...

Just because Magasines run greenlane days do not take it as read that the company's involved are aware of thier legal requirements. Most of the UK mags supply innacurate/outdated/misinformed information about Greenlane issues, training, legal requirements. Eg: LRW stated that Land Rover Experience were responsible for LANTRA's Off Road Driving courses. LROi have told readers to drive lanes that were actually not RoW and have driven for an article a lane in Wales that has a long term TRO on it, something also achieved by LRE. Even TOR have made msitakes on roadbooks (I know as I made some of them)

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Go for it Chris.

I would happily pay to be taken round green lanes (having no navigational skills myself) - you are very good at it!

Tying it in with landscape photography might be a good angle. Many of the places we've been were quite breathtaking - and I wish we had had the time to stop and take piccies more often.

I think for a lot of people, avoiding the headache of working out where to go and where to stay would be worth a few quid.

There are also many people who can afford a weekend, or a long weekend but not much more in terms of taking leave from work. I know that put me off the trips to the foreign in the past.

You could supliment your income by flogging ropes, waffles, shackles, gloves, CB's, kagools - that kind of thing.

Might be worth having a number of classes of trip with one suitable for all the L322 owners, many of whom would love to justify having a 4x by taking it off road in a safe and undamaging environment.

You will get my full support in whatever capacity I can offer if you do it (even as a punter in my mobile Chip Shop!).

Si

Si

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  • 1 month later...

"I wondered if anyone here has ever been on a "paid for" green lane trip"

Yes, '99 or 2000 at Christmas time, with someone who was then Derbyshire based, and who was just starting up a part time business for guided Green Lane tours, which later folded due to the expense of getting insurance.

Later I went on another Derbyshire one, organised under the auspices of a LR magazine, but run wholly by someone who makes their living out of tours in Africa and Scandinavia.

"... any information or impressions that I might find useful. What did you expect? Did the trip deliver?

How might it have been better/what would you have liked do do that you didn't?"

Trip one. I was very new, and didn't know what to expect, so had no preconceptions. The countryside was good, but anyone who says bush scratches will polish out is either lying or ignorant. When they said the route was suitable for shinies I didn't expect permanent damage to the paintwork. With hindsight I only recall one spot when I should have reversed out, and selected a different set of ruts that would have avoided a hawthorn bush. You could call that damage self inflicted, but none of the rest was.

If you are going to say suitable for shinies, the paint should touch nothing but green vegetation, brown wood should be absent. I was a little disconcerted that the guiding team, while experienced in off tarmac driving, and Land Rovers (he now writes for an LR magazine), knew so little about 38As that he didn't know where the diffs were, and that I might take a different route because of that.

Towards the end of the day I was getting bored following the same tail lights that I had been following all day.

"what would you have liked do do that you didn't".

With hindsight, I thought the running order should be changed around, with everyone persuaded to lead, with the tour leader riding shotgun in the car. Any passenger in the car that is now leading swops into the passenger seat of the guides vehicle, which always runs in second place in the queue, with the guide assistant driving. This means the guide never actually drives the route 'on the day', but in this case he had driven the route the day before to minimise the risk of unexpected surprises. This means that everone gets the experience of picking the route, and I now know a lot of people regard that as 'frightening', but with an experienced guide alongside it's as reasuring as it can be. The churn in vehicle order stops boredom creeping in, and allows drivers to observe how different vehicles tackle / handle terrain.

Trip 2.

Organised by a bunch of experienced but incompetant and inconsiderate people. The wife in the office said one thing, the husband did something completely different. She agreed with my comment that there was no point of knocking the countryside to pieces, and that the route would be suitable for shinies. He clearly hadn't been told, or discounted the idea as rubbish, but no message got back to me. I did the first half of the route, to show I could, then handed him the route card back, and without shouting or swearing, made it quite clear I thought their organisation lacking. His proffessionally sunny disposition was definately clouded, his assistant looked downright miserable, and stood well back. 2 weeks later I got an e-mail inviting me on another trip !! Clearly a husband and wife team who didn't speak, or didn't listen. My e-mail response secured a one liner reply, saying they were complying with my request to take me off their mailing list. A RESULT!

The one thing I did like about this trip was the route card. This contained a Tulip diagram, which although I'd heard off, and read about, I'd never actually used before. We were briefed on how it worked, and they sent me off as number one, there being a 5 minute delay between vehicle despatch. I had intended to take a passenger, but it hadn't worked out, (a blessing, considering how the day ended) so I was navigating and driving. Others had GPS, I didn't, but the man who was supposedly putting together a list of waypoints cocked up (surprise) so that might be why I was leading, he was trying to sort things out for the others.

Clearly, it's a bit difficult translating the tulip onto the map, and driving at the same time. So, no map, just the Tulip and the steering wheel, with frequent stops to check what the Tulip said next. No chance of boredom here!! I did well, and only went off route after a couple of vehicles passed me, opened a gate and went into a field, and held the gate open for me to follow, which I did, without checking the Tulip. They were wrong, even though mob handed.

The final straw was when we got to the bit that he had briefed was narrow, bordered by trees and stone walls. He had pointed out that we could 'escape' from the route at this point, and that is what I intended to do. One of the assistance vehicles followed me in, and when it became obvious there was no space to pass, or turn round, as the leader had indicated there was, she declined to reverse the quarter mile out, down a narrow, but 'softly' vegetated lane. So, I cleared the branches that were hanging below roof height, as the male assistant clearly didn't have a saw, or the inclination to swing an arm, which is effectively the same thing. I then drove the lane, with no-one volunteering to spot for me. I did reasonably well, scratched the nearside door on a stone wall, but didn't bend metal, or crack plastic. I did fold both mirrors back against trees, without hitting the tree in either case, which if you look at a 38A indicates a pretty close call.

I think that answers your questions I've copied above.

I now Green Lane as passenger for the organiser in a local club. We are in the lead vehicle, he gets the drive, I get a clear view of wonderful countryside, without tail lights, a bit of exercise opening gates, and a map to read. I enjoy watching a skilful driver at work, and we have a good crack. It's good.

I sometimes think of driving myself, but I wouldn't enjoy just following, and there are always some lanes I wouldn't want to take my car down.

You have commented about the 'mud' element of your name.

I wouldn't even dream of going with any organisation which implied 'mud is good'. I don't mind soft ground with differential deep ruts, but I think of mud as being liquid and I have more respect for my car than to choke the radiators with mud. Nor do I think it 'fun' to have to clean them out afterwards.

Clearly, you can easily imagine I don't see much point in driving through a gate, driving around a field or forest in convoluted circles, then driving back out of the same gate. It has some purpose if you are doing training, but training for what if you aren't going to drive on Green Lanes?

And please don't get me started on 'Trainers'. In my experience, some don't have the knowledge, some do but can't translate it from their 90" vehicle to the Customers 108" vehicle, and some just can't explain what they apparently know.

I'd rather learn by my own mistakes, than pay someone for his ego trip.

"Your views welcomed."

I hope so, that was longer than I intended :-)

David,

With a 11 year old 38A, that hasn't passed through life without showing something of the experience.

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Blimey David, thanks for the reply - must have taken since I first posted. :)

anyone who says bush scratches will polish out is either lying or ignorant. When they said the route was suitable for shinies I didn't expect permanent damage to the paintwork. With hindsight I only recall one spot when I should have reversed out, and selected a different set of ruts that would have avoided a hawthorn bush. You could call that damage self inflicted, but none of the rest was.

If you are going to say suitable for shinies, the paint should touch nothing but green vegetation, brown wood should be absent.

Yup, I am onto that one! It does make it difficult to find enough lanes however - and depends to a large extent on a driver's ability and spacial awareness.

With hindsight, I thought the running order should be changed around, with everyone persuaded to lead, with the tour leader riding shotgun in the car. Any passenger in the car that is now leading swops into the passenger seat of the guides vehicle, which always runs in second place in the queue, with the guide assistant driving. This means the guide never actually drives the route 'on the day', but in this case he had driven the route the day before to minimise the risk of unexpected surprises. This means that everone gets the experience of picking the route, and I now know a lot of people regard that as 'frightening', but with an experienced guide alongside it's as reasuring as it can be. The churn in vehicle order stops boredom creeping in, and allows drivers to observe how different vehicles tackle / handle terrain.

That is an interesting idea, I had never thought about that - on club outings I was always at the front and never had cause to think about that aspect. One possible fly in that ointment is that it could be misconstrued as giving driver training which is illegal on a public road (including BYWAYS etc.) unless you are an ADI.

The wife in the office said one thing, the husband did something completely different.

Sounds familiar! :D

The one thing I did like about this trip was the route card. This contained a Tulip diagram, which although I'd heard off, and read about, I'd never actually used before. We were briefed on how it worked, and they sent me off as number one, there being a 5 minute delay between vehicle despatch. I had intended to take a passenger, but it hadn't worked out, (a blessing, considering how the day ended) so I was navigating and driving. Others had GPS, I didn't,

A good roadbook should eliminate the need for a GPS, map, compass etc. I thought about roadbooks but remain uncertain about peoples wish to "self guide". Something to think about none the-less.

only went off route after a couple of vehicles passed me, opened a gate and went into a field, and held the gate open for me to follow, which I did, without checking the Tulip. They were wrong, even though mob handed.

I have fallen into that trap more than once too! Ask NAS90!

I now Green Lane as passenger for the organiser in a local club. We are in the lead vehicle, he gets the drive, I get a clear view of wonderful countryside, without tail lights, a bit of exercise opening gates, and a map to read. I enjoy watching a skilful driver at work, and we have a good crack.

You are a rare breed indeed. It is a nightmare trying to find someone competent and willing to take that on. Fortunatly I have a "nautical" man...

You are welcome out with me anytime, no scratches I promise. ;)

Cheers

Chris

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You are a rare breed indeed. It is a nightmare trying to find someone competent and willing to take that on. Fortunatly I have a "nautical" man...

I wonder who that might be!?....

Heigh ho me hearties! :D

Anyway Dave, I too enjoy getting a clear view of wonderful countryside, without tail lights, a bit of exercise opening gates, and a map to read. I particularly like the navigating bit!

When's then next trip Chris? B)

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