Total electrical failure

[jbs]

Unfortunately I can't watch that where I am as I'm not allowed to stream video on this server It has sonic block on it so if you know how to go round that then perhaps I'll be able to watch it

And as for the other symptoms I've no idea to be honest-sorry

John

[David Sparkes]

In the video, what is the whirring sound? Is it happening when you turn the key to the start position?

In the video a Brake light and a fourth light comes on at the same time the whirring starts; What is the fourth light?

Does it light when the engine starts normally?

Regards,

[Paul64]

In the video, what is the whirring sound? Is it happening when you turn the key to the start position?

In the video a Brake light and a fourth light comes on at the same time the whirring starts; What is the fourth light?

Does it light when the engine starts normally?

Regards,

Hi David, just nipped outside to take another look. As far as I can see three lights came on, the battery light, the handbrake light and whatever the light is right of the trailer symbol? Unfortunately the dash lights only came on once and now everything is dead again

One of my friends believes it could be a faulty immobiliser as would be positioned between the ignition and the starter? Is there anyway of disabling the immobiliser to test this theory?

Thanks, Paul

[steve b]

Hi Paul

The whirring sounds like the starter spinning over without engaging = dodgy/stuck solenoid , I'd suspect an intermittent fault in the main battery lead to the starter as the immobiliser must be off for the starter to be spinning over,and as the earth has been replaced that only leaves the main + to the starter, get a new cable made up , welding suppliers would be a good place to try (35mm2 is the size you will need).

hth

Steveb

[Paul64]

Hi Paul

The whirring sounds like the starter spinning over without engaging = dodgy/stuck solenoid , I'd suspect an intermittent fault in the main battery lead to the starter as the immobiliser must be off for the starter to be spinning over,and as the earth has been replaced that only leaves the main + to the starter, get a new cable made up , welding suppliers would be a good place to try (35mm2 is the size you will need).

hth

Steveb

Thanks for the advice Steve.

[steve b]

lets hope it sorts it out , nothing more frustrating or un-settling than ongoing intermittent faults

Steveb

[Paul64]

Been outside trying a few things to get Defender started. I used a jump lead to connect the neg batt post to the engine block, which made no difference. Going back to the possible stuck solenoid, can anyone tell me how I would release it and where would it be positioned? I also read on another thread somewhere that an immobiliser spider unit can cause this problem. Does anyone know what that's all about?

Cheers, Paul

[steve b]

The solenoid I mentioned is the small cylindrical 'thing' on top of the starter, it has 2 roles , a , to connect the battery to the starter to spin it over and b, to push the starter gear into the ring gear. The battery main lead , along with a couple of brown leads will be on one M8 terminal and a white/red trace on to a blade connector then a short heavy cable to the starter itself.

The connection and push should happen together , yours is just spinning and not pushing.

Voltage drop in the batt main lead may cause this and all your other faults too so I'd still go for a new + lead first.

M8 eye terminal for the starter end and a new batt clamp , solder the joints if poss .

hth

Steve

[Paul64]

The solenoid I mentioned is the small cylindrical 'thing' on top of the starter, it has 2 roles , a , to connect the battery to the starter to spin it over and b, to push the starter gear into the ring gear. The battery main lead , along with a couple of brown leads will be on one M8 terminal and a white/red trace on to a blade connector then a short heavy cable to the starter itself.

The connection and push should happen together , yours is just spinning and not pushing.

Voltage drop in the batt main lead may cause this and all your other faults too so I'd still go for a new + lead first.

M8 eye terminal for the starter end and a new batt clamp , solder the joints if poss .

hth

Steve

Thanks again Steve for the information.

[jbs]

Paul here is the post you may want to look at http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=57655&pid=506658&st=0entry506658

I did'nt realise you had an spider on your vehicle-that would explain why you've got intermittent problems like you have I think you'll find the spider in the same place as your battery and it can be by passed by a plug that land rover have even made to get round this problem

This is the plug here that you need http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/14839/AMR4956-IMMOBILISER-CENTRE-CONSOLE-LOOM.html?search=AMR4956&page=1

and It's the same place I got the one for my ex g/f disco too,She had similar problems to you as she would stop her disco at say a fuel station and when she got back in she wouldn't be able to start it again until say up to 20 minutes later, the place where the spider lives so to speak in a disco is right above the heater matrix in the dash so with the engine running and the heater heating up it caused her spider to fail several times before I found this site and that helped me cure her spider problem, and when I put it in I zip tied it in together situ as I didn't want to taking the dash out to plug it back together again since I've used this plug she hasn't had a single problem starting it any time she wants- which has saved me before we parted a right load of grief

HTH

John

[TheRecklessEngineer]

A spider fault would quite simply stop the vehicle from starting - the dash lights would come on and every thing else would operate as normal. From reading the above, the starter is turning - albeit slowly. If the spider was at fault, it wouldn't even click.

My vote is for bad +ve lead or a bad connection somewhere.

[Paul64]

Paul here is the post you may want to look at http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=57655&pid=506658&st=0entry506658

I did'nt realise you had an spider on your vehicle-that would explain why you've got intermittent problems like you have I think you'll find the spider in the same place as your battery and it can be by passed by a plug that land rover have even made to get round this problem

This is the plug here that you need http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/14839/AMR4956-IMMOBILISER-CENTRE-CONSOLE-LOOM.html?search=AMR4956&page=1

and It's the same place I got the one for my ex g/f disco too,She had similar problems to you as she would stop her disco at say a fuel station and when she got back in she wouldn't be able to start it again until say up to 20 minutes later, the place where the spider lives so to speak in a disco is right above the heater matrix in the dash so with the engine running and the heater heating up it caused her spider to fail several times before I found this site and that helped me cure her spider problem, and when I put it in I zip tied it in together situ as I didn't want to taking the dash out to plug it back together again since I've used this plug she hasn't had a single problem starting it any time she wants- which has saved me before we parted a right load of grief

HTH

John

Thanks for the information John. I'm not sure if I have a spider unit or not. I read an article by a guy who describes similar problems with his 300Tdi who did have a spider unit installed. My immobiliser system was installed soon after it was bought by the first owner and is called a Cobra alarm system. Not sure if spider units (whatever that is) existed back in 1994?

Cheers, Paul

[Paul64]

A spider fault would quite simply stop the vehicle from starting - the dash lights would come on and every thing else would operate as normal. From reading the above, the starter is turning - albeit slowly. If the spider was at fault, it wouldn't even click.

My vote is for bad +ve lead or a bad connection somewhere.

Thanks James. I should have carried some +ve lead cable. I have been to a motor factors this afternoon and they asked me for a VIN to order a cable, they couldn't give me off the roll with a couple of connectors. Not sure if that is standard practice in Germany

Cheers, Paul

[jbs]

Paul If It's any help My ex G/F Disco was a 95 on an M 300 tdi

[FridgeFreezer]

You must be able to buy cable & connectors somewhere, I'd expect a battery suppliers, chandlers, or welding supplies to be able to sort you out.

I haven't read the whole thread - Have you got a multimeter and measured things like voltage drop from battery +ve to the starter +ve terminal, or the back of the ignition switch? Current draw with the engine off? A few simple measurements should tell you where your electrons are going.

[David Sparkes]

Thanks James. I should have carried some +ve lead cable. I have been to a motor factors this afternoon and they asked me for a VIN to order a cable, they couldn't give me off the roll with a couple of connectors. Not sure if that is standard practice in Germany

Cheers, Paul

With a non-standard installation such as you have I'd be wary about ordering a standard part to suit a particular VIN.

I'd tend to risk giving it a miss while you are in Germany, unless you can find a welding supplies shop that will sell you a length of cable of the size previously advised.

If it does fail again, and you can get to the large terminals on the starter motor solenoid, again as described a few posts ago, and without damaging yourself, them try clipping the end of your positive jump lead on the terminal, and only after you are happy the clip isn't also touching earth, clip the other end of the jump lead onto the positive of the battery. Then try starting the engine.

Good Luck.

[Paul64]

I have been outside fiddling David,I cannot get a clear view of the +ve connector on the starter as the exhaust manifold is in the way. From underneath I did manage to get a jump lead connector on the terminal end of the main +ve feed that could't be more than 1 cm from the starter connector then connected the other end to the +ve battery post. However, it made no difference at all.

FridgeFreezer - "Have you got a multimeter and measured things like voltage drop from battery +ve to the starter +ve terminal"

Sorry for being thick, but how do I do this? I do have a multimeter but not the know how

I will be over in the UK next week on a short trip (flying over and hiring a car!) so will see I can pick up some cable then.

I forgot to mention, a mechanic put a new water pump on last week and we had trouble starting the LR then after he finished, no power etc. I don't think he could have done much to the electrics from the front end, but he did undo and push the alternator to one side to make room. Do you think this is just coincidence?

Cheers, Paul

[FridgeFreezer]

Sorry for being thick, but how do I do this? I do have a multimeter but not the know how

This is a good start, this gives you a bit more info.

The example of measuring the voltage from one end of your main battery cable is just a different way of testing it, rather than measuring from a given point to ground (which should give you good battery voltage wherever you do it), if you measure from the +ve post to the terminal on the other end, you are measuring the voltage drop in the cable. Ideally it would be 0v, but if you have a bad connection it may be up to full battery voltage. If there is a high resistance connection in the line, this will have a big drop across it which will get bigger if you switch stuff on.

[Paul64]

This is a good start, this gives you a bit more info.

The example of measuring the voltage from one end of your main battery cable is just a different way of testing it, rather than measuring from a given point to ground (which should give you good battery voltage wherever you do it), if you measure from the +ve post to the terminal on the other end, you are measuring the voltage drop in the cable. Ideally it would be 0v, but if you have a bad connection it may be up to full battery voltage. If there is a high resistance connection in the line, this will have a big drop across it which will get bigger if you switch stuff on.

Thanks for the explanation and info. I will have a good read when I get back from work and will then give it a go.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul64]

I totally disconnected the main feed, then managed to get a jump lead properly connected directly from the battery to the starter motor. I could tell straight away that there was a stronger feed, however the starter did the same spinning but not engaging. Then after 6 or 7 attempts all the power switched off once more and came back 10 or so minutes later. As I used an alternative link from battery to starter would that rule out any ignition problem?

I have checked the main earthing points as well as the bulkhead one on the engine bay side just below the windscreen. I thought someone told me once that there was also an earth somewhere in the foot well on the drivers side, but can't find it?

Cheers, Paul

[David Sparkes]

I totally disconnected the main feed, then managed to get a jump lead properly connected directly from the battery to the starter motor. I could tell straight away that there was a stronger feed, however the starter did the same spinning but not engaging.

That was a good move, well done.

This is a starter motor / solenoid problem (The solenoid is part of the starter motor, you remove as one unit, THEN you can pull it apart into it's different parts).

I haven't taken one apart for many years, but the conventional explanation about 'how things work' is that the solenoid operates, throwing the pinion into the flywheel ring gear, but only then do the main contacts close, feeding power to the motor.

However, what I do recall from the long ago strip down is that it isn't as simple as that.

The earth side of the initial operate circuit for the solenoid went through the motor windings, which was either a way of reducing the current surge when the motor was kicked in, or it gave a 'soft start' to the motor which, turning slowly for part of a revolution, helped ensure the pinion didn't get blocked by hitting a tooth square on.

Thus it might be possible, if this initial operate path worked, that the starter rotated (relatively slowly) without the solenoid actually moving the pinion. This would be the whirring sound you recorded in the video.

None of this detail helps you Paul, because you mechanic humans not machines, but it might help someone you have working on the car.

Then after 6 or 7 attempts all the power switched off once more and came back 10 or so minutes later.

At the point of power failure you should have felt with your fingers the temperature of all the connection points, especially those on the battery. This is because a high resistance joint gets hot.

As I used an alternative link from battery to starter would that rule out any ignition problem?

It does for me.

I have checked the main earthing points as well as the bulkhead one on the engine bay side just below the windscreen.

Include these in your temperature checks.

I thought someone told me once that there was also an earth somewhere in the foot well on the drivers side, but can't find it?

I don't know, it's outside my experience.

HTH

[Paul64]

Thanks David,

I have had the vehicle recovered this morning and I have passed on your comments to the mechanic. He didn't speak much English but I think he understood what I was saying.

Cheers, Paul