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MM type R pump insitu


white90

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MM type R pump? I don't mean to be a complete numpty, but what on earth's one of those when it's at home then? :huh:

It's this techno speak that I find off putting at times...

Graham, it's whirly chain spinny at up to 4000 rpm flappy, hope it don’t let go rip through the bonnet, I ain't putting my fingers anywhere near that, drive to a whizzy pumpy oil pusher piped to roundy roundy string bobbin for the pullin’ and dragin’ of the horse-less carriage when the pilot, engine and tyres fail to maintain forward motion.

Some think it is the way forward. banghead.gif

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A Mate of mine has one of these :

The Type R is fast very fast, but the chain drive is IMVHO a terrifying "Bodge" and I have yet to see anyone with enough "Bottle" to lean into the engine bay and have a peer when he then "Blips" the throttle.

He has already found the chain is red rust with water mud sand and selected Gooo on in and around it, he has also had probl;ems regularly with enagage and disengage, not sure if its a general problem of just him. For a unit avaiable for sale (alfred murray 4x4 winches) it does smack of a home built special.....there must be a beter way (PTO ? IMHO ??)

The winch unit itself is nice, the pump and installatation I am less enchanted with

It did however pull a certain dead 90 out of 4 foot of water :( MOI !

Oh, and it certainly 'aint cheap !

Nige

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that looks like a scrapheap challenge special...

the chain set-up looks like a bit of a lash up to me...

i would personaly go for either PTO powered (the best solution) or a multi-vee belt drive solution... that looks like a disaster waiting to happen..

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that looks like a scrapheap challenge special...

the chain set-up looks like a bit of a lash up to me...

i would personaly go for either PTO powered (the best solution) or a multi-vee belt drive solution... that looks like a disaster waiting to happen..

I think the reason for moving away from PTO driven is to retain the ability to drive assist. I don't like the chain either, I think a nice toothed belt would be better.

No doubt this winch is quick but I think it may still need some work to the package.

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I've not got enough dough atm to start playing with MMs, but wouldnt some sort of drive assist be possible with a PTO driven pump and spool valves, rather than the traditional solenoids?

certianly dont like the look of that chain, and i dont think the radiator hoses like the look of it either.

Luke

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I am a MM fan but I decided against that for all the reasons already stated. I also use bikes off road and once you dip chains in water and muck - even the O ring type - their life expectancy takes a nose dive. I've had at least three or four times as many broken chains on my bikes over the years as I've had punctures and the thought of that lot letting go in the middle of nowhere was enough to put me off.

PTO drive is no good to me as I need drive assistance due to the strength of (non) available anchor points, the winch power is no problem (yet to find anything that will stall it) but all the power in the world is no good if the hook moves before the vehicle...

I wonder if that pump could be set up in that location using something like a 300Tdi timing belt (toothed of course - but how strong are they?) and a couple of the cast 300Tdi lipped crankshaft pulleys that Bearmach apparently sell. Anybody know how the length of a Tdi timing belt would suit this? I'd happily go with using a toothed rubber belt - though there is still a risk of something going between the belt and a pulley and causing an expensive crunch - but at least you won't need a new bonnet/water pump/timing case/radiator if it does!

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I think the reason for moving away from PTO driven is to retain the ability to drive assist. I don't like the chain either, I think a nice toothed belt would be better.

No doubt this winch is quick but I think it may still need some work to the package.

Why can't you drive assist with a pto?

you can certainly run the box and the pto at the same time can't you?

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Guest diesel_jim
Why can't you drive assist with a pto?

you can certainly run the box and the pto at the same time can't you?

'coz if you engage the clutch you'll stop the winch from winching.

I reckon a rubber belt with an aircon type electric clutch would fit the bill. maybe a military type double pulley with twin belts if slippage is an issue?

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It's about the magic 1 to 1, Baby....

Have friends that have done it......

And you won't beleive the money..... :blink::huh:

Leave this for winching timber, buy something decent for winching cars :lol::lol:

Or of course Helicoptor support (The option of choice i believe) :ph34r:

One day they'll sus Hdyr.....something or other...... until then........

Leave alone :ph34r::ph34r:

:P:P:P

bah Humbug

Nice winch you've got there Mr Wightman :lol:;)

Jim :)

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Why can't you drive assist with a pto?

you can certainly run the box and the pto at the same time can't you?

James, it’s probably been explained 100 times before but for your and any newcomers here it is again.

Any form of PTO (inc hydraulic) driven winch will have trouble keeping up with the rotation speed of the wheels. A hydraulic grown up will explain flow rates for hydraulic winches but the speed of the PTO in relation to the speed of the wheels is too slow. If you could drive the PTO in top gear and the wheels in low gear you may be in with a chance. You could fit a 2ft diameter drum to your winch but the pulling power would be somewhat reduced! It’s all down to line speed against wheel speed.

There are solution such as a separate gearbox between the output of the gearbox and the input of the PTO to increase speed. There is possibly a solution in using a VERY high output pump but engine loads would have to be considered.

Before we get into the electric vs hydraulic/mechanical discussion the PTO winch is generally more powerful, more reliable and more expensive. I have tried PTO but find electric more suited to challenge events.

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that looks like a scrapheap challenge special...

the chain set-up looks like a bit of a lash up to me...

i would personaly go for either PTO powered (the best solution) or a multi-vee belt drive solution... that looks like a disaster waiting to happen..

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

And all busy spinning for 10-15k miles a year even when my thoughts are far from winching. Won't do much for its life expectancy. :(

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not sure why the chain would be spinning at 4k? 10m/s maybe

toothed belts - yes you can do it, Fenner HTD TDP3 will pull 60kW providing you can keep allignment of .25 degrees

V belts - no, you would need a lot of them and the end load would be too great on the crank, serpentines have a similar issue.

life expectancy of an industrial 1/2" chain - not a lot in an unpleasant evironment, try a scotoiler, or a DID X ring chain, or do it easy and take the chain off in between events? (all of 30 seconds) or treat them as disposible? £8 a 6 foot length

Nige - the dog clutch can be notchy, has he tried changing the oil in it? the breather can lead to oil polution

Bodge - yep looks like it to me as well, engineers apply - find a neater way?

Im sure the experts will be able to explain the issues of using high speed UJs to drive pumps far better than me so I'll leave it to them

sorry guys did you ask for tech or crappy snides??

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In fairness to the designer, the chain is a quick release type and is not designed to be permanently connected. :) The winch was designed mainly for event use and I believe the idea is to connect the chain (which takes a couple of minutes) when you get to the event. The winch is frightenly quick ……….. 100ft/min under full load ………..and there other other parts of the design that do not fit comfortably with my ideas (like big solenoid valves instead of manual spool valves).

However, for me, the chain idea this is unacceptable as I want the winch capability as a permanent entity, thus I am going down the PTO road ………. which is happening as this is typed. If it helps, once fitted I will do a technical picture write up for others to follow. I am looking at 50ft/min under full load of 16000lbs and a re-spool rate of 250ft/min.

I cannot see any reason not to use a toothed belt (i.e. Cam belt) ……… but then other issues immediately come to mind ...... like pump speed vs engine speed over the entire rev range (most pumps will not like exceeding 3000rpm).......... but will not give the flow at lower revs.

I can see exactly where Paul W is coming from with his comments on drive assist ;) . With a purely mechanical PTO winch, drive assist is difficult to say the least, however, with PTO hydraulic, careful pump selection can alleviate this problem to a degree ………. but drive assist with this setup will always be an issue……….. the pump needs high flow rates at low rpm. Also, drive assist in competitions is sometimes very different to drive assist in other circumstances.

Cost is the other issue ………….. a bomb proof hydraulic setup will not come cheap …… winch, PTO adaptor, pump, spool valves, over-centre valve, tank, and hoses will be the thick end of £2k ………. ask me how I know. :rolleyes:

Ian

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I think Paul's 100% right. What you want is a powerful (ie hydralic or mechanical) winch that allows for drive assist or an electric winch that pulls like a hydralic. To be honest, any powerful, fast winch is expensive; a very tweeked 8274 will set you back quite a bit more than £2k once you've thrown in batteries, 24V alternator etc. :huh: Winches is going to be one of the main expenses on the truck in the next few months; On the front I'm going for a twin 24V motors, freespool long drum, shimmed and moddified gearbox, gigglepin mainshaft, modified brake assembly and a secondary disk brake on the front. The back will be the slightly less extreme; single 24V motor, freespool drum, shimmed gearbox, gigglepin mainshaft, moddified brake and secondary disk brake. Add to all of that a 24V alternator and a couple of good batteries, a new rear crossmember and a new bumper and its not cheap!

There's no easy solution but having seen how the twin motored 8274s go I think its a very good compromise.

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Any form of PTO (inc hydraulic) driven winch will have trouble keeping up with the rotation speed of the wheels. A hydraulic grown up will explain flow rates for hydraulic winches but the speed of the PTO in relation to the speed of the wheels is too slow. If you could drive the PTO in top gear and the wheels in low gear you may be in with a chance. You could fit a 2ft diameter drum to your winch but the pulling power would be somewhat reduced! It’s all down to line speed against wheel speed.

Thats a very good explaination :)

I've yet to use a PTO winch in anger, but I wonder how possible drive assist would be on MogLite.

With an auto and an axle ratio of 7.5:1 would I be on the money with a H14 PTO install ?

(Yes I know big tyres is going to negate this somewhat)

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Quote: Dollythelw

sorry guys did you ask for tech or crappy snides??

Cheer up ole bean, might never happen....... :P

Just out of intrest.....IF

That chain broke, What would actually happen???????

My moneys on falling of and doing little, if any damage ????????

Thoughts and reasons please :)

Jim :)

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