MM type R pump insitu

[RocKeR]

Well you don't hear about many bikers having their legs torn assunder by flayling bike chains when they break, so I'm probably with you there Jim.

[darthdicky]

Video

If it helps, that briefly shows the speed of my mechanical PTO winch in 1st gear, with the transfer box in low to assist it. As you can see, the wheels are turning a LOT quicker than the winch is. Most of the time I shouldn't need to assist, but the clutch is set a bit low (fear of breaking it again!) so it cuts out on hard pulls and assisting really helps it in deep mud - a lot more than I was expecting actually. Not a problem in this stuff, but its a lot more awkward in other situations.

Other problem I found at Bures was that if you're a bit low on fuel, on steep slopes the pickup becomes exposed so it runs for a while, then stops. Then you're stuck on a steep hill with no way of getting back up again Also had problems at very steep angles with the carb not liking it and stalling, so having to get down again by running it on the starter. Starting to see the attraction of electric winches now...

Richard

[Diff]

Video

If it helps, that briefly shows the speed of my mechanical PTO winch in 1st gear, with the transfer box in low to assist it. As you can see, the wheels are turning a LOT quicker than the winch is. Most of the time I shouldn't need to assist, but the clutch is set a bit low (fear of breaking it again!) so it cuts out on hard pulls and assisting really helps it in deep mud - a lot more than I was expecting actually. Not a problem in this stuff, but its a lot more awkward in other situations.

Other problem I found at Bures was that if you're a bit low on fuel, on steep slopes the pickup becomes exposed so it runs for a while, then stops. Then you're stuck on a steep hill with no way of getting back up again Also had problems at very steep angles with the carb not liking it and stalling, so having to get down again by running it on the starter. Starting to see the attraction of electric winches now...

Richard

Unfortunately, that is one of the downsides of a carburettor system. Even if the fuel pick up in the tank is covered, extreme angles can cause the carb to misbehave, and engine to stall. Even if you had an electric winch, with the engine stalled, you will only have a limited amount of winching ability beore the batteries flatten. Fuel injection will run much cleaner at funny angles, so will a diesel engine of course but a low fuel level in the tank will result in air getting in. My 2.5 petrol runs on LPG and it is brilliant offroad. The engine will run smoothly at any angle, never a miss or a stumble. If you run low on gas, the pick up pipe will come out of the liquid LPG at extreme angles just the same as any other vehicle, but because the tank is pressurized, gas vapour is fed to the engine instead. This reduces power but the engine still runs.

Which ever fuel you use, you need to keep plenty of fuel in the tank to avoid 'some' problems.

If offroading after a long drive, you could always consider taking a jerrycan of petrol with you so that you could top the tank up before offroading.

Regards,

Diff

[darthdicky]

Yeah, I guess these hills were just steeper than anything I've done before, as I haven't had problems before. I think in the situations I was in, an electric winch would have got us to the punch and back out, whereas we didn't get one or two and had to be dragged up the hill. Not going to change mine though as I can't afford it!

It was only the almost vertical climbs we had trouble with the carb, and before that it did run fine for a minute or two until it started trying to run on air. Had half a tank in the morning but it obviously used a fair bit. Don't like filling up too much as it falls out again on sideslopes!

Just getting used to it really, and working ways around its little problems

Richard

[Daves3]

So how quick is this thing compared to running 24V through a highmount?

This is what I am doing as its cheap and I already have brackets for the 2nd alternator, plus I can run some cool 24Volt spoghtlights

[minivin]

Well you don't hear about many bikers having their legs torn assunder by flayling bike chains when they break, so I'm probably with you there Jim.

Well I know of one bike (Yamaha FJ1300) that the owner had the chain let go at 90mph, it then proceeded to wrap itself around the engine sprocket, while punching the starter motor and alternator off the engine, splitting the crankcases and bending the mainshaft and layshaft in the gearbox. But then his attitude to chain tensioning was set it tight and do a burn-out

I've lost two chains before, both at 50mph, the first time it destroyed the oil spinner casting on the primary chaincase while tearing a portion out of the rear chain guard, the other time just saw it drop out into the road after a roundabout. Luck of the draw

[dollythelw]

Quote: Dollythelw

sorry guys did you ask for tech or crappy snides??

Cheer up ole bean, might never happen.......

Just out of intrest.....IF

That chain broke, What would actually happen???????

My moneys on falling of and doing little, if any damage ????????

Thoughts and reasons please

Jim

fit a guard and a trantorque - worse case the chain snaps and wraps around the crank sprocket - then the trantorque will protect it and the guard will prevent it going where its not supposed to be

as for cheering up - until parts turn up Im captain grumpy.....

[BogMonster]

Well you don't hear about many bikers having their legs torn assunder by flayling bike chains when they break, so I'm probably with you there Jim.

The gearbox casing on my old Yamaha was torn asunder by a flying bike chain.

They tend to take off in the direction of travel rather than sideways. Most of mine have broken at low speed as that is when they are under most strain, when you nail it in bottom gear off road

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Just out of intrest.....IF

That chain broke, What would actually happen???????

My moneys on falling of and doing little, if any damage ????????

Thoughts and reasons please

Jim

Yep, thats my thoughts ......... on an oil burner its only going to be rotating at 3K ish ......... probably 4K max.

I just doesn’t look the job ........... if you know what I'm saying

So how quick is this thing compared to running 24V through a highmount?

This is what I am doing as its cheap and I already have brackets for the 2nd alternator, plus I can run some cool 24Volt spoghtlights

The winch itself is 'kin fast ........... 100ft/min under full load .......... I dont think you will get that with 24volt.

Here....... Type R

Ian

[TomG]

Will be fitting a MM on my 90 over the next month and considering the options.

Am using the same pump from an ex-PTO installation.

Ability to winch & drive assist is essential

How about rotating the casing on the pump so it pumps when turning anti-clockwise, then use a dog-drive fixed inside the bell of the crankshaft pulley and a dog on the pump.

Fabricate a sliding cradle for the pump (rubber mounted) so it can engage/disengage.

Only problem is the radiator will be in the way (relocate to it to truckcab?)

Engine is a Rover V8 (v-belt front end, not serpintine)

Will it work?

Plan-B would be to use a high torque toothed belt as dollythelw suggests, but how would it cope with being covered in mud / grit?

[dollythelw]

Will be fitting a MM on my 90 over the next month and considering the options.

Am using the same pump from an ex-PTO installation.

Ability to winch & drive assist is essential

How about rotating the casing on the pump so it pumps when turning anti-clockwise, then use a dog-drive fixed inside the bell of the crankshaft pulley and a dog on the pump.

Fabricate a sliding cradle for the pump (rubber mounted) so it can engage/disengage.

Only problem is the radiator will be in the way (relocate to it to truckcab?)

Engine is a Rover V8 (v-belt front end, not serpintine)

Will it work?

Plan-B would be to use a high torque toothed belt as dollythelw suggests

the dog and the pump will work clockwise or counter clockwise - have a look at the Fenner drive designer website for a list of things to consider when using toothed belts, the primary being linear allignment, also worth a nose at misplacement drives, Belden UJs with sliding joints to cope with motor movement etc etc

[freeagent]

there are some equations you need to do if you want to do a proper job to ensure the belt set up can transmit enough power to the pump under full load.

a belt manufacturers website (like gates) might be helpfull. otherwise a half decent mechanical engineer should be able to help you out.

its all about surface area, angle of lap and belt tension.

linear alignment is also very important, if you are even just a little bit out your pulleys will eat your belt quicker than an early 300Tdi ate cambelts...

m@tt

[dollythelw]

Been there matt

see the drive designer element of the Fenner website, prime mover IC 4 cylinder, trans power 20kW, soft start in medium duty environment with a run time of less than 10 hours per day etc etc, and it will come back with a Fenner HTD TDP3 8mm pitch, 30mm wide, max permissable angular runout of 0.25 degrees , lineal missalignment of 5mm per metre run running on 44 tooth sprockets

[Paul Wightman]

I've yet to use a PTO winch in anger, but I wonder how possible drive assist would be on MogLite.

With an auto and an axle ratio of 7.5:1 would I be on the money with a H14 PTO install ?

(Yes I know big tyres is going to negate this somewhat)

Andy, look at it from another angle.

Drive to a mechanical winch (H14) is from the back of the transfer box (before low range) via a dog clutch, a chain drive (1:1), a series of drive shafts, through a worm drive, another dog clutch and ending up at the drum.

Drive to the wheels is from the transfer box (via low range), through the prop shafts, into the diffs, through the halfshafts to the wheel hubs and finally to the ground via the tyres (yes, wheel diameter does matter!).

Both are fixed ratios of rotation (except the option of high range drive to the wheels) so one has to be altered to enable the wheels to rotate at the speed of winch line retrieval. This will require either drive to winch to be geared up or drive to wheels to be geared down.

Engine speed and gear selection have no effect on the ratio of winch speed to wheel speed. As you know I ran an H14 with a Torqueflite gearbox which worked fine, the gearbox would change up ok although it never made it into 3rd (top) as the drive shafts would rattle at over 2000 rpm in 2nd and the winch was going quite fast enough!

Andy, let me know what you come up with.

[Guest mr_wuffles]

On alot of the trucks in work the pumps are connected by either chain or direct drive couplings with a blue "plastic" connector. The direct drives are an absolute pain in the arse so hard to line up and eat the couplings if they're any bit out. The chains never give any problems(used 365 days a year) but i'd agree fit a gaurd.

[dirtydiesel]

V belts - no, you would need a lot of them and the end load would be too great on the crank, serpentines have a similar issue.

sorry guys did you ask for tech or crappy snides??

A lot of older plant/tractors drive their hydraulic pumps via multiple "V" belts with no problems.

Even if you had an electric winch, with the engine stalled, you will only have a limited amount of winching ability beore the batteries flatten.

I've been winching my G wagon around the yard for over a month without the engine running, and the optimas have yet to flatten.

Ultimatly it will happen, but not as quick as some people would have you believe.

[SeriousIIa]

A lot of older plant/tractors drive their hydraulic pumps via multiple "V" belts with no problems.

I've been winching my G wagon around the yard for over a month without the engine running, and the optimas have yet to flatten.

Ultimatly it will happen, but not as quick as some people would have you believe.

Dirty Diesel don't forget that a winch which is only pulling a rolling vehicle through the yard will only pull 100amp max. But under full load it will pulll 400 to 600. Amp.......

Cheers Bowy with dual Exide and 8274

[dirtydiesel]

Dirty Diesel don't forget that a winch which is only pulling a rolling vehicle through the yard will only pull 100amp max. But under full load it will pulll 400 to 600. Amp.......

Cheers Bowy with dual Exide and 8274

That fact hadn't escaped me!,

But being as i've done about 4-500 foot on the winches around the yard, by your calcs i should be able to do about 100 foot under full load, not bad really.

And my batteries still haven't faded!

(yet)!

[dollythelw]

sorted that rad yet??

we've got multi polys on the stone sieves but I figured that a V8 pulley being reasonably long has a fair moment of force on the crank and keyway and the extra length would push it too far - if there was an outrigger bearing like a long nosed blower setup then that would get round it?

[B reg 90]

Dolythelw,

Interested in the electromagnetic clutch on the parker website, but can't find it (i have searched). Do you have a short cut by any chance?

Interested in what size oil tank you use and what flow rate your system goes up to as I am trying to strike the balance between tank size/wieght and air entrainment/overheating of the oil. Interested in others experiences.

Moglite,

as a user of the earlier PTO winch (525) I have on 1st hand experience discovered that in 5th (transfer box in neutrual) they are fast and powerfull, but the winch goes way way slower than the wheels. For example to winch assist you need to use 1st gear hence:

Engine in 1st at 1000rpm, low box with 7.5 diff ratio and 37" tyres gives a ground speed of 0.55 meters/sec

Winch speed on bottom wrap (48:1 gear ratio in winch) gives 0.03 Meter/sec,

However bung it in 5th at an engine speed of 2500 rpm and you get a line speed of 0.32 Meter/sec. However you are overspeeding the worm gear doing this as I think they are only rated to do an input speed of 1500 rpm.

The end result is that you can't drive assist with out wheel spinning madly and winch oh so slowly. I solved this to some extent by getting my brother to build the biggest ground anchor we could fit in the back of the motor. The blade ended up being 3 x the size of a D44 anchor. However it is still an issue in soft ground.

Adrian

[MasterSplicer]

Adrian,

I have done lot of testing to create a ,in my opinion good setup. Even i am chanching it again.

Used a twin pump setup PTO driven and that gave me 125 cc as a total pump volume.

Winch Mile marker

Tires 36 inch

Diff is 4,7

transfer box fitted with a crawler gear

And when al this came together i had a 1 : 1 drive assist

tank i have used is filled with about 55-55 ltrs

Al the oil is cooled by a hughe cooler what can handle a max of 120 ltrs a min. So that's the flow where i am working with. At least in that setup.

Tubing and hoses used 20 mm for the pressure and 22 mm for the return

So i took what the cooler could handle as a max and took it from there. Using a hughe 1 inch ports valve block and that's what you want because other wise it gets very hot. Systems with 15/16 and even 18 mm can't handle these flows. It's even a fact that the 20 mm is to small but some times you have to make a compromise. The hoses getting very thick as is the tubing,what makes it difficult to work with in some times very tight area's.

Hope this helps

[dollythelw]

I recognise those typing mistakes mastersplicer... are you coming next weekend to Leos??

Adrian - its a CP16, clutch pack 3 - if you pm me your email address I will ping the catalogue over for you, my tank is 42litres and it tucks between the main hoop of the cage and the bulkhead so its only occupying dead space, the pump runs at 65ltrs/min running 46 grade oil

hope that helps a bit

[MasterSplicer]

Dolly,

You have a sharp eye. When are you at Leo's place? Next weekend you said!! Must take some time of,when i can. Let me know the time when you are over. Al ready so far??

[dollythelw]

we should be at Leo's very early on Saturday morning so anytime during Saturday daytime would be a good idea - give him a call and see if he has a preference

[MasterSplicer]

we should be at Leo's very early on Saturday morning so anytime during Saturday daytime would be a good idea - give him a call and see if he has a preference

Wil cal Leo anyway. He came with this sugesstion time ago to hop over when you are driving to Russia.

Wil ask him what fitts best in his schedule.