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Front Brake Pipes


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Looking at my Defender's front brakes today while pulling the swivels apart, I've been thinking (usually a bad sign).

I assume the presence of the interim brake pipe between the flexible hose and the caliper is due to the fact that when at full lock a flexible hose going straight into the caliper's fitting would interfere with the spring seat and/or axle?

So this got me thinking, if I could get a flexible hose that had a banjo fitting on the end instead of a straight one, I could just have it going straight from the bracket on the chassis to the caliper. I'm thinking this sort of fitting:

goo_ban-fit-6.jpg

Is this sort of thing possible? It would solve faffing with the brake line bracket when removing the hubs, even with it notched it's just more bother that could be avoided I think.

Would mean using stainless hose unfortunately, but that would be a necessary evil I feel.

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Ive gone braided hoses direct to all four callipers on my disco.

Got them from David at Llama 4x4.

Didn't cost a fortune either, had to replace a rear disc the other day, so easy without the copper pipes.

Andy

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I have had similar thoughts, i can get so much steering lock that the link pipe even comes into contact with the spring platform.... so i think i will end up having some pipes made to my spec, length etc.... and doing away with the link pipe and using a banjo as above!!

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David @ LLama all of mine, and i've got banjo's on as well :)

Why do you wish to clamp your hose ? If it's to save rebleeding them, then it's only an extra five minutes to bleed. If it's to be able to close a line but carry on using the other brakes, then just carry a blank :)

G

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I just like the ability to clamp the hoses, which one cannot do with braided hoses :)

Personally, I have always hated clamping hoses anyway - in spite of the practice being common and accepted, I just can't visualise doing it without in some way damaging the hose wall..unsure.gif

As for the original question - banjos are great (as a biker I have used them often) and in my experience are much less likely to seize than normal fittings, but there are some caveats:

1. They require a machined flat face at the orifice and so may not work in all cases...

2. They require a clean and un-corroded face at the orifice and so may not work when replacing original fittings on old callipers...

3. You should always fit new copper washers each time the joint it disturbed and use a torque wrench to do them up - they are surprisingly easy to snap off and will often weep if old sealing washers are re-used.

Roger

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Looking at my Defender's front brakes today while pulling the swivels apart, I've been thinking (usually a bad sign).

I assume the presence of the interim brake pipe between the flexible hose and the caliper is due to the fact that when at full lock a flexible hose going straight into the caliper's fitting would interfere with the spring seat and/or axle?

So this got me thinking, if I could get a flexible hose that had a banjo fitting on the end instead of a straight one, I could just have it going straight from the bracket on the chassis to the caliper. I'm thinking this sort of fitting:

goo_ban-fit-6.jpg

Is this sort of thing possible? It would solve faffing with the brake line bracket when removing the hubs, even with it notched it's just more bother that could be avoided I think.

Would mean using stainless hose unfortunately, but that would be a necessary evil I feel.

Just looked at a few pics I have of my calipers, and the caliper side hose bracket looks like it is mounted on the axis of the ball joint to minimises the movement of the hose, I imagine if you attached a hose straight to the caliper from the chassis mount due to the oil input hole, it being on the outer side of the caliper you would get a lot more relative movement of the hose and having a rigid banjo style bolt could cause the pipework to get a bit overstressed? in the present system there is no load on any of the brake joint hoses, where as taking the copper pipe out, you'd start to induce a load straight into the fitting...?

post-20087-127589504492_thumb.jpg

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Looking at my Defender's front brakes today while pulling the swivels apart, I've been thinking (usually a bad sign).

I assume the presence of the interim brake pipe between the flexible hose and the caliper is due to the fact that when at full lock a flexible hose going straight into the caliper's fitting would interfere with the spring seat and/or axle?

So this got me thinking, if I could get a flexible hose that had a banjo fitting on the end instead of a straight one, I could just have it going straight from the bracket on the chassis to the caliper. I'm thinking this sort of fitting:

goo_ban-fit-6.jpg

Is this sort of thing possible? It would solve faffing with the brake line bracket when removing the hubs, even with it notched it's just more bother that could be avoided I think.

Would mean using stainless hose unfortunately, but that would be a necessary evil I feel.

No problem at all supplying the fittings as in the pic or better still I could use a swage on one and make up the hoses for you....

Straight from the caliper to the chassis is an obvious modification with many advantges - the best one being the facility to just swing the caliper out of the way to mess with the hub / bearing / disc etc.

The next step would be to go like the hoses I supply Tomcat for their works cars - they go chassis to caliper in all 4 corners moving the T piece up to the chassis. That means that all 4 corners, which are the only place a hose is likely to get damaged are the same and so one spare in the toolbox will reapir any corner.

Just make sure your caliper has a spot-faced area around the inlet hole so ther is something for the copper washers to seal against...

Many thanks

David

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Hmm, that sounds like a pretty good idea actually. I like the idea of moving the rear lines to the chassis and having a flexi at each side. As long as the flexi was long enough of course :unsure:

I will have a think and give you a ring at some point, cheers David :)

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I like the sound of this for the front.

Not sure about the rear, i was considering welding a couple of tabs to the axle case and running flexis from there to the caliper, or alternatively doing the entire rear axle run from the T in braided teflon hose.

Not sure if doing the whole axle run would make it more vulnerable, or perhaps introduce extra "sponge" into the braking system?

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I like the sound of this for the front.

Not sure about the rear, i was considering welding a couple of tabs to the axle case and running flexis from there to the caliper, or alternatively doing the entire rear axle run from the T in braided teflon hose.

Not sure if doing the whole axle run would make it more vulnerable, or perhaps introduce extra "sponge" into the braking system?

The vunerable question will depend on protection and location so I ca't give a definitive answer.

The 'spongy' argument is one I can answer now and is one that raises its silly, little head ( no personal attack on yourself for bringing it up :rolleyes: ) in the Land Rover world all the time!!

The answer is NO IT WILL NOT GIVE A SPONGY PEDAL!!!!

ignoring the boring facts which unless you are familiar with what an expansion rate of a hudraulic hose means in the real world ( just another list of statistics) the best answer to thgis is anecdotal...

Would a British / Euro touring car team use braid all the way through the car if it made their brakes less than they could be?

Would a WRC team ( not to mention club / national teamsd ) do it if it reduced the brakes??

The answer is of course they wouldn't!

I went through this argument in great detail with a top UK ( and abroad ) Comp Safari driver who could not get a good pedal on a Disco II running gear - he had got braid throughout and one of the all-knowing Land Rover types assured him it was the braid giving the problem. Several certificates and letters from the manufacturer of the actual hose ( rather than hose assembly ) proved on paper what we already knew. The sponge was somewhere else and not in the hose ( off the top of my head the expansion rate is something like 0.1 of 1% ar a few thousand psi !!

We found the problem - the Disco II calipers were actually flexing ( the casting itself ) - a pair of Wilwood calipers later and the pedal was great!!

Sorry to rant on about this one but I get it every time from the Land Rover woeld - rally, circuit,track, motorbike, rod, custom etc. al; just accept the fact that it works without trying to find faults that are simply not there

David

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I'd never heard it before in terms of landrovers, hence asking!

I knew that switching from rubber to braided flexis on road cars tends to give an improvement in pedal feel, but wasnt sure how the braided stuff compared to kunifer or steel, especially given you'd in effect be replacing a good meter or two of steel with the braided lines on the rear axle.

I hadnt really thaught about the rally teams, but now you mention it i have seen them run braided lines thru the car from front to rear etc so i accept that it cant be a problem!

When i come to do mine, i'll probably just go braided to the T pieces then, saves messing about with welding tabs to the axle etc.

Cheers!

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