Hydraulic Pumps - Log splitter

[Defender]

Hello All,

Just wondering if anyone has any trick ideas for hydraulic pump mountings on a 300TDI Defender 90, I'd like to power a log splitter over the winter and maybe a winch in the back if the mood takes.

I have an air con pump for the onboard air system which I don't particularly want to get rid of, I can't use the transfer box PTO option and there's not enough room to drive it off the crank unless I move the rad to the back, again which I don't want to do particularly.

So as you can see I have as slight issue so thought I'd open it up to the brain of the forum and see what neat ideas people have used or can come up with? I can change things obviously by removing the air con pump but as I say I don't particularly want to, I want to try and get round this problem without changing my truck as it is if possible so any help please would be appreciated.

Thanks,

[landroversforever]

Would one of the dual Alternator mounts work?

Or, like the basic milemarker set up, can you run it of the PAS pump?

[FridgeFreezer]

Why can't you use a PTO or crank-mount as things currently stand then? I don't recall things being that tight around the average Defender

[errol209]

Why can't you use a PTO

I was too polite to ask!

[Defender]

I was too polite to ask!

Because I would like to leave that space free for an Underdrive in the future

[FridgeFreezer]

OK, one down, what's up with crank mount other than it looks a bit tricky?

[Defender]

Would one of the dual Alternator mounts work?

Or, like the basic milemarker set up, can you run it of the PAS pump?

Twin alternator mount sounds interesting, does that mean I could have the air con pump and hydraulic pump side by side?

The PAS pump is just too low a flow rate to run a log splitter I think from memory it only supplies about 10 litres per minute and I need about 60ish.

Why can't you use a PTO or crank-mount as things currently stand then? I don't recall things being that tight around the average Defender

I have seen some pics of crank driven systems but they seem to stick out quite a bit and would foul the rad or at least they would seem to on a 300TDI Defender, I know the 200TDI sits allot further back so maybe its not a problem here.

[Defender]

Here are some pics of a crank driven one:

Think these are from the forum somewhere so apologies to the owner just using your pic as an examle:

[Night Train]

If it were just for log splitting and general work I would say electro-hydraulic off, say, a Transit tipper.

I have one to power a 500kg crane.

[Milemarker Type S]

The direct drive system shown above is 'Old Spots' for a Disco 200Tdi in a defender- mine is much the same for a factory 200Tdi defender...The crank adapter and cradle are slightly different for both applications. Both fit with the engine and rad in the original position- neither will fit on a factory 300Tdi. If you don't want to move the rad and don't want to go PTO you are limited to an electric hydraulic power pack- generally farly low flow rate- or a belt/chain drive from the crank... I would ignore chain cos it is just too damn scarey... If you are looking at belts then I would speak to Neal (v. nice man!) at Red Winches who are now supplying this as a bolt on option driven by a syncronous (timing) belt... Linky

Si

[FridgeFreezer]

I would ignore chain cos it is just too damn scarey...

Worked beautifully for us

[kkk2]

The Electric Supply Board in Ireland (ESB) always use hydraulic winches on their defenders. On the earlier 300 tdi's they used a hydraulic pump driven by an electric clutch mounted where the air con goes on a 300tdi, they found however the flat belts were not able to drive the pumps properly and they then moved to pumps fitted to the transfer boxes, not sure if this helps you but the Esb were not doing any heavy work with their winches and were having issues with them, if you were powering a log splitter I reckon you would need the pump giving its best.

K

[Steve Hiatt]

Sorted

[Defender]

Sorted

Yes thanks Steve - One of those started the pickle I'm in now with a ruptured disc hence why I want a machine to do it

Thanks to everyone for the replies it looks like I either need to remove the rad or go with the PTO option not quite what I was hoping for but hey if this is the best way then so be it.

Next question who knows about cc and flow rates? To get 60 to 70 LPM what sort of pump will I need on the PTO unit?

[lrfarmer]

don't know how much you were wanting to spend but why not just buy a small donky engine with a pump already fitted

are you shore you need 60 LPM most tractors only have pumps doing 35 LPM my big bale wrapper only need 26 LPM and that uses oilmotors to work and rams

[David Sparkes]

Next question who knows about cc and flow rates? To get 60 to 70 LPM what sort of pump will I need on the PTO unit?

Having recently developed an interest in hydraulic power on a Land Rover, can I just point out there is a mathematical relationship between CC per revolution and Litres per minute? You should be able to sort that out yourself, and develop figures for both pump displacement size and the required rotation speed.

Before spending more time on a wild goose chase I want to challenge your requirement of 60 to 70 LPM.

This is based on the fact that, IIRC, the well known privately developed Series 2A based Truck Cab Log splitter uses a Dowty pump, standard on Land Rovers during the 1960s, which develops 6.5 Gallons per minute at 1500 rpm. Again there is a mathematical relationship, but the answer is ~30 LPM, or half what you are asking for.

Note that 1500 rpm is a 'standard' reference speed, it does NOT mean the pump has to run at that speed, often (in this function) the pump will run slower, and deliver less flow, because that is all that is required.

Further reading, for a week at least, http://www.log-rover.co.uk/

HTH

Edit.

Following my own advice, I've just reviewed a few pictures on the log-rover site, and seen that while it does use the Dowty pump I recalled, the engine is run at 2000 rpm in this configuration.

HTH

[errol209]

I think some first principles might help.

You are looking to split a (say) 600mm log in (say) five seconds using a force of (say) two tons.

A typical PTO pump generates ~3000 pounds per square inch. Two tons is 4480 pounds, so your ram needs an area of 4480/3000 square inches, which is 1.5. A circliar ram of this area has a radius of 1.5 = pi x r^2 or (1.5/pi)^.5, which is 0.7 inches, say 18mm, so a diameter of 36mm (40mm would be over engineering but a standard size, so we'll use that.

So to get a 40mm diameter (area 1260 mm2) ram to extend 600mm you need 756000 cubic millimetres (756 cubic centimetres) of fluid. Over five seconds this is:

~150 cc per second

~9000 cc per minute

~9 litres per minute

~2 gallons per minute or

~6 cc/rev @ 1500 rpm.

[At 70 litres per minute your ram will extend fully in 0.64 seconds - pretty much uncontrollable]

[landroversforever]

Further reading, for a week at least, http://www.log-rover.co.uk/

I do love that truck remember reading about it in one of the mags.

[Defender]

I think some first principles might help.

You are looking to split a (say) 600mm log in (say) five seconds using a force of (say) two tons.

A typical PTO pump generates ~3000 pounds per square inch. Two tons is 4480 pounds, so your ram needs an area of 4480/3000 square inches, which is 1.5. A circliar ram of this area has a radius of 1.5 = pi x r^2 or (1.5/pi)^.5, which is 0.7 inches, say 18mm, so a diameter of 36mm (40mm would be over engineering but a standard size, so we'll use that.

So to get a 40mm diameter (area 1260 mm2) ram to extend 600mm you need 756000 cubic millimetres (756 cubic centimetres) of fluid. Over five seconds this is:

~150 cc per second

~9000 cc per minute

~9 litres per minute

~2 gallons per minute or

~6 cc/rev @ 1500 rpm.

[At 70 litres per minute your ram will extend fully in 0.64 seconds - pretty much uncontrollable]

Thats very interesting thanks for that.

I arrived at the figure of 60LPM as most suppliers seem to quote pump sizes of 25cc to 55cc to bolt onto the PTO units / Crank driven which seem to give this kind of output. Having checked the specs of an 9,000Ib Warn winch it requires a flow rate of 45LPM so maybe 60 is too much!

I would have thought that yyou would need more than 2 tons of splitting power but at least I have some calcs to work with and some more investigation so thanks for your help its much appreciated.

[FridgeFreezer]

looks like I either need to remove the rad or go with the PTO option

I'll ask again, why do you need to remove the rad? There is a fair bit of space in the front end of a LR unless you're planning on having aircon+full-width intercooler. Chain or belt drive to a pump mounted on the engine is quite doable, crank drive just requires clearance in front of the crank pulley so a different shape of rad or just shuffling things about a bit can create space.

I suggest buying a tape measure and calculator as these may solve several of your problems in one

[rusty_wingnut]

I would attempt to double up on the compressor, by modifying the mounting to take both pump and compressor, It must be "crammable" although finding a belt maybe a bit tricky.

I agree though that you will struggle to get it all to fit on the front of the crank.

[FridgeFreezer]

Or buy a T-Max twin compressor and ditch the air compressor.

[Defender]

don't know how much you were wanting to spend but why not just buy a small donky engine with a pump already fitted

are you shore you need 60 LPM most tractors only have pumps doing 35 LPM my big bale wrapper only need 26 LPM and that uses oilmotors to work and rams

It is an option to buy a donkey engine but as I've always fancied trying a hydraulic winch on my truck I thought it may be an idea to combine the two.

Interesting that atractor only pushes out 35 LPM I thought they were way more but as you've probably read the thread I've admitted that I was perhaps allot of with my original figure.

I'll ask again, why do you need to remove the rad? There is a fair bit of space in the front end of a LR unless you're planning on having aircon+full-width intercooler. Chain or belt drive to a pump mounted on the engine is quite doable, crank drive just requires clearance in front of the crank pulley so a different shape of rad or just shuffling things about a bit can create space.

I suggest buying a tape measure and calculator as these may solve several of your problems in one

From what I can gather the crank drive option is easy on a 200TDI but not a 300. Having looked under there again last night there is only about 4 inches between the rad and the engine block which leaves hardly any room to mount anything, I even looked to see if I could graft a gear or another pulley onto the end of the crank but there is very little clearance between the pulley and the fan (Yes I know I could go electric but went back to the viscous for reliablity after a few issues with Kenlowe units). I even wondered if I could stick a very small shaft on the crank and send it out the front under the rad, but I think this may be too vulnerable for off roading and will create a whole new list of problems for winch mounting.

I could use a different rad as you say so maybe I'll look into this a bit more thanks for your help.

Or buy a T-Max twin compressor and ditch the air compressor.

This again is an option but I think the capacity of the onboard air is way above a twin T-Max which is why I'd like to keep it if possible.

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My intention of starting this thread was not to frustrate people and I apologise if I have. I merely asked if anyone had come up with a different idea for hydraulic pump mountings, hydraulic power seems more popular these days so I just wondered if there had been any alternatives made to anything already on the market. I can change my truck and it would make my life allot easier if I did but I wanted to investigate all avenues before doing so. There has been some good ideas which I will look into further so thanks for your help so far and apologies to anyone frustrated.

[errol209]

My intention of starting this thread was not to frustrate people and I apologise if I have. I merely asked if anyone had come up with a different idea for hydraulic pump mountings, hydraulic power seems more popular these days so I just wondered if there had been any alternatives made to anything already on the market. I can change my truck and it would make my life allot easier if I did but I wanted to investigate all avenues before doing so. There has been some good ideas which I will look into further so thanks for your help so far and apologies to anyone frustrated.

Don't worry, Fridge always sounds scary

[FridgeFreezer]

Don't worry, Fridge always sounds scary

You're confusing scary and cynical