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Soren Frimodt

DIY Wideangle prop

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I've done this before, and a lot of people have asked me about it, so now that I had to do another one I thought I might aswell take some pictures and do a small write up.

Actually there isn't much to it and some of you will surely already know this trick, but for those that don't here goes:

First off you have to find a prop from an early RRC, it is easily recognizable because the flanges have a square look to them as opposed to the round look of the series and defender flanges.

This square flange is a bit taller, which not only allows wider angle, but also gives you the extra length you need because your diff has come further away from the transfercase.

All you do know is take apart both props and swap the RRC flanges onto the Series prop. If you don't run an anti-wrap setup or have extremely high spring you might also want to grind the prop itself for more clearance, again to allow greater angle.

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post-9137-055225400 1284224748_thumb.jpg

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That would be a nice cheap option, if it's needed. I know a few guys running parabolics with one-ton shackles and not having any issues at all.. How much do you gain by doing this?

I fixed it in another way, bit more pricey though.....

IMG_8147.jpg

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Well you can often run the combination you describe with little problems. But often there's a vibration from the front prop that you might not notice, but it wears down your U-joints quickly.

To begin with I just ran Freewheelinghubs, but I thought it would be better to fix it. And so far it has worked way past my expectations saving me many a U-joint change. And yes buying some off the shelf props are definitely a better and easier solution. But we have a saying here in Denmark: No arms? No cookies ;)

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Well you can often run the combination you describe with little problems. But often there's a vibration from the front prop that you might not notice, but it wears down your U-joints quickly.

Having yokes capable of greater angles does not change the angle the u-joints are running at sitting at rideheight, so cannot reduce vibrations and therefore cannot increase u-joint life, unless they used to bind and snap.. Only proper u-joint angle will take vibrations away.

My front driveshaft (not the one pictured above by the way, those I've used when converting a mate's 109" to LC80 axles, I've used slightly different ones) has been in use for around 15.000km's and the u-joints are still perfect. And the angles were, and still are, not how they should be in an ideal driveline world :). But I get no vibrations, only when I engage 4wd at speed do I notice vibrations, slip it out of 4wd again and vibrations are gone.

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Thanks for this,

I am not sure if it will help me but to date I have used some spacers the same distance as your yokes.

I will try to see if I have the old RRC yokes.

Marc.

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Having yokes capable of greater angles does not change the angle the u-joints are running at sitting at rideheight, so cannot reduce vibrations and therefore cannot increase u-joint life, unless they used to bind and snap.. Only proper u-joint angle will take vibrations away.

My front driveshaft (not the one pictured above by the way, those I've used when converting a mate's 109" to LC80 axles, I've used slightly different ones) has been in use for around 15.000km's and the u-joints are still perfect. And the angles were, and still are, not how they should be in an ideal driveline world :). But I get no vibrations, only when I engage 4wd at speed do I notice vibrations, slip it out of 4wd again and vibrations are gone.

Okay I need to explain myself better. When you accelerate in you series truck with more horsepower than stock and/or softer springs combined with 1-ton shackles, your front axle twists a bit downwards at the diff. It also lifts the front of the truck which makes the angle at frontprop completely ridiculous. This results in a vibration because the prop has reached its limitation and the u-joint itself hits the housing and yoke. This will kill your u-joint. With this mod it doesn't happen. Also if you drive your truck a lot offroad as I do, going up steep inclines causes this crazy angle at the u-joint aswell. If you look at your aftermarket wideangle props you will notice that they are a perfect copy or the RRC setup. Which is what I imitate aswell. So ofcourse this allows for less binding at a wider angle, why else would you buy yours?

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Hej Soren,

Any trick that helps to eliminate binding at the prop on a modified series vehicles is certainly appreciated. Like you wrote, "DIY wideangle prop" and using Land Rover original parts to boot, nice tips and thanks.

When you do this mod, are you doing it a both ends of the drive shaft or just up at the transfer case? I'm just wondering if a person could get away with just one modified u-joint or is it better with two (on the same prop shaft)? Also you said an early RRC, what year range are referring to?

Thanks,

Todd.

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Hi Todd.

The problem actually seems to be most apparent at the diff end. So if you were to only do it in one end, let it be that one.

Again its a bit dependent on the angle your diff has ended up at, and even more what length you need your prop to be. I suppose it varies so much that there is no clear answer to this one.

But reading this thread should give the basics that is needed to perform this very cheap upgrade to your driveline, so that everybody can adopt it to their needs.

I'm sorry I don't know at what year they changed to the defender like prop. And you cannot mix and match props as you like because some early series had the smaller u-joints, then they got bigger towards the end of the series 2's. And the same with defender and RRC although the other way round. They started with the big ones and then they got the smaller ones.

But as you can see from the picture they are easily recognizable, so I suppose its just about looking for them?

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Hej Soren,

I have a series 3 hybrid that has a 2" lift and I do get some steering vibration that I would like to get rid of. I've seen on my drive flanges that they are beating the hell out of their selves from my off roading. Been trying to figure out a way to solve this problem for sometime and this thread seems to be the answer that I was looking for. ;)

Jupp I would need to see that they are not 75mm vers the 80mm yokes. In the second image that you uploaded, you can see the difference of the height of the hole for the u-joint cap, can you measure the two and tell us the difference.

Todd.

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Okay I need to explain myself better. When you accelerate in you series truck with more horsepower than stock and/or softer springs combined with 1-ton shackles, your front axle twists a bit downwards at the diff. It also lifts the front of the truck which makes the angle at frontprop completely ridiculous.

This results in a vibration because the prop has reached its limitation and the u-joint itself hits the housing and yoke. This will kill your u-joint.

True. Never really realized that the standard driveshafts are so bad... If the mod you describe helps for that, awesome! Cheap, simple fixes are always good :). I never experimented with standard suspension as I reckon that's a complete waste of time and money if you want it to work really well.

I went pretty extreme almost immediately so needed completely new shafts with way longer slip joints due to the lift and the insane articulation that it has, so it's only logical to opt for the high angle yokes while I'm at it. The only problem I had the other day was that the yoke came off the splined section of the front driveshaft. I had that one custom made and the idiots there welded the cast iron yoke to the steel splined shaft. This is possible ofcourse, when done right, which they didn't. The weld broke. Quite inconvenient when the 109 is pointing nose up with its back end sitting in a mudhole and you have to take the driveshaft of and get out in 2wd... That's being fixed atm, so that will never happen again..

I'm also looking to install a center limit strap on the front axle to prevent full droop of the front axle. That will help fight wheel hop and will improve the hillclimbing.

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True. Never really realized that the standard driveshafts are so bad... If the mod you describe helps for that, awesome! Cheap, simple fixes are always good :). I never experimented with standard suspension as I reckon that's a complete waste of time and money if you want it to work really well.

I went pretty extreme almost immediately so needed completely new shafts with way longer slip joints due to the lift and the insane articulation that it has, so it's only logical to opt for the high angle yokes while I'm at it. The only problem I had the other day was that the yoke came off the splined section of the front driveshaft. I had that one custom made and the idiots there welded the cast iron yoke to the steel splined shaft. This is possible ofcourse, when done right, which they didn't. The weld broke. Quite inconvenient when the 109 is pointing nose up with its back end sitting in a mudhole and you have to take the driveshaft of and get out in 2wd... That's being fixed atm, so that will never happen again..

I'm also looking to install a center limit strap on the front axle to prevent full droop of the front axle. That will help fight wheel hop and will improve the hillclimbing.

Too bad mate, yes "trailfixes" as you call them overthere can be cruel, but it's often what gives you the best experience and a pad on your shoulder from yourself as you solved the problem in the worst conditions. I've seen your 109 on here and pirate but not really looked close enough to see whether you run an anti-wrap bar? I would think you would do that with those long soft springs? I have been thinking about a center limit strap my self to save the prop. But anti-wrap bars are on the cards for this winters long evenings, and it should do the job, at least it did on my series 2.

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I've seen your 109 on here and pirate but not really looked close enough to see whether you run an anti-wrap bar? I would think you would do that with those long soft springs?

Nope, no anti-wrap bar on mine. And there's very little pinion movement under torque in 1st low, despite having 3leaf parabolics at the back. I did remove all the steel plates in between the leafs to make the spring pack is thin as possible and I made the spring perches 10" long, apparantly that's supposed to reduce spring wrap.

IMG_7987.jpg

That said, next spring I'm going to change a LOT of things on it, one of those things is that I'm going to a DC driveshaft with thicker tube and possibly larger u-joints and it gets an anti-wrap bar. Reason is I want to turbo the 3B, and with about 140hp/330nm torque I reckon it will need that bar!

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Todd: height from flange mounting surface to center u-joint is 4,15 cm on the RRC one, can't seem to find the stock series ones, don't know where I put them :D

Toyrover: Just realized your not american :D I thought you where, my bad about the "trailfix" comment ;) Yes ofcourse more length on the perches will decrease wrap. But the longer it is compared to the spring the more will it limit uptravel of the spring. But only if the spring goes up further than flat, and it really shouldn't :)

I must agree, with 330nm you ARE gonna need it, no doubt. I have issues with wrap with my std. 2,25 petrol and 7.50 tyres :o But then again it ways 1200kg.. :ph34r:

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Toyrover: Just realized your not american :D I thought you where, my bad about the "trailfix" comment ;) Yes ofcourse more length on the perches will decrease wrap. But the longer it is compared to the spring the more will it limit uptravel of the spring. But only if the spring goes up further than flat, and it really shouldn't :)

I must agree, with 330nm you ARE gonna need it, no doubt. I have issues with wrap with my std. 2,25 petrol and 7.50 tyres :o But then again it ways 1200kg.. :ph34r:

Haha, that's right, I don't live THAT far away :). It's still a trailfix though ;).

These perches don't limit uptravel at all, the springs still reverse arch a fair bit (yes I know, it's not very good for spring life :P ). So far they're holding up fine. Who says cheap nasty parabolics are worthless :lol: ?

You get axle wrap with that setup?? Geez, mine ways about 2100kg, sits on 33" muds and has a lot more torque than that and I've got no issues.... weird. Yours is very light, how did you manage that? or was it a typo?

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No it was no typo, in my experience every leafspring setup I've seen on a landy suffers from spring wrap. Although of course some way more than others. On some you can barely pull off your driveway without noticing it, on others you really have to hammer it. Mine is more the latter, but still I feel it, and once you've had a anti-wrap bar setup you can never lever look back. The feeling of the tyre grip and the whole offroading experience is so much better. So I'll definitely be doing at least my frontend this winter. But again how much it annoys you are very much a personal thing, and it also depends on how you drive. If you do much crawl like stuff where you use you articulation fully and go slow over large obstacles you don't feel it much. But the kind of way I drive is mostly up and down steep and long inclines or bumping over steep but smaller inclines. This is the kind of offroading I really like, and I'm often on the loud peadal (although my series one isn't loud :lol: ) And in these conditions I feel it a lot.

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Yipee,

I looked at my old RRC prop in the garage today and it is the correct type for this mod.

Marc.

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Great for you :) Installed mine the other day and works just as planned, no more binding and a bit more length.

Ooh err,

That will please my missus when mine is fitted :ph34r:

Marc.

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Did the rear propshaft on my hybrid today, here are some pictures of the install will commentary.

With the drive flanges sitting besides each other on a level surface, the bottom of the u-joint cap is 22mm from the base on the standard series flange, the u-joint cap on the RRC drive flange is 29mm, giving a height gain of 7mm per drive flange or a 14mm longer propshaft. ;)

Rd3390.jpg

The original rear drive flange, has the minimal of clearance at the top and if you look closely you can see that the propshaft flange has been binding with the drive flange.

Rd3343a.JPG

The RRC drive flange installed you can see the difference. :) The biggest treat is that it's not nearly as difficult to get a wrench on the flange bolts. Even with the propshaft just hanging in the air, the propshaft flange never came anywheres near coming in contact with the drive flange. :D

Rd3343b.JPG

The upper drive flange up tight to the hand brake. :angry: The propshaft flange is so close that it literally sits between the flange bolts. I curse how tight it is when I have to remove these bolts. Again the ends of the propshaft flanges are dented from binding with the drive flange.

Rd3357a.JPG

Here the RRC drive flange moves the u-joint out from the hand brake giving it more movement and no matter how or where I positioned the propshaft, there was no binding. :D And look at the space to the bolts. :P

Rd3357b.JPG

The one thing that totally caught me by surprised was that the slide joint on the propshaft was fully extended with standard tires, sitting level on the drive. :o The hybrid may have standard 90 rear springs, but I install a custom 2" lift and god only knows if the new cranked trailing arms have any bearing on it??

But with the 14mm extension added today the slide joint is now giving the propshaft some movement both inwards and outwards. I'll keep an eye on this but for the time being some movement is better than nothing.

Here is the finished result

Rd3332.JPG

Soren, no idea how you stumbled upon this idea but the results are favourable and you deserve a pat on the back. I've been getting a lot of driveline vibration, I'm hoping that this is one step closer to smooth driving. Once the new GKN u-joints come in the post I'll be upgrading the front propshaft.

Cheers,

Todd.

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Todd,

Thanks for the great pictures to ilustrate the mod.

I am really happy about this mod as it really will help my Series1.

Marc.

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Soren you deserve all the credit! ;)

I've driven about 100km with this new configuration and I have to say that this wide angle propshaft upgrade has done wonders with the elimination of driveline vibrations. You no longer feel it in the seat of your pants nor is the steering wheel vibrating continuously.

I can't wait to doing the front propshaft, I'm expecting it'll do it's part with making my hybrid more enjoyable to drive.

Cheers,

Todd.

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There is someinteresting info here.

I was looking for this info as I'm adapting a disco front axle for my series, allthough now I might not need wide angle props.

Hey tuko int yours a 300tdi, I am doing mine at the moment, with disco axles.

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