KAM or Ashcroft CV's & Shafts ?

[zim]

Hello,

Ok...in my last two outings (challenges) i've broken a front half shaft each time

I'm running standard 10 spline stuff with an arb, from what i think is an earlier defender axle (thin drive flanges, railko bush).

So...my portals aren't gonna be able to fit this truck meaning i've got to make it stronger to carry on with.

I've got a spare 24 spline arb locker which can go in.... and i'll have to buy front half shafts and CV's.

I'm assuming i can fit them to my "10 spline" hubs ? or are they different to 24 spline hubs ? If worse comes to worse i've got an lse front axle that had abs which i could also use.

Who would you suggest i go for ? The prices seem to work out about the same (however, ashcroft don't appear to have shafts in stock according to their site - but i've not called yet).

Cheers

Gordon

[Bowie69]

From what I remember, you'll need to swap stub axles too, which is where it gets expensive....

TBH, you could well be better off buying a second hand 24 spline axle complete, refurbing it and getting the spare 24 spline ARB and new KAM/Ashcroft shafts & CVs in it, and then bolt the whole lot up to the truck. Would certainly save on down time...

[zim]

From what I remember, you'll need to swap stub axles too, which is where it gets expensive....

TBH, you could well be better off buying a second hand 24 spline axle complete, refurbing it and getting the spare 24 spline ARB and new KAM/Ashcroft shafts & CVs in it, and then bolt the whole lot up to the truck. Would certainly save on down time...

Wasn't sure about stub axles (hence the reason for the thread).

Re: 24 spline axle - i do have an lse's axle i can use the ends from.

Re: downtime - it's currently sat on axle stands with no innards and i'm out the country but would like to do slindon in 10 days time.

[ashtrans]

Hi Gordon,

I am obviously biased so I will let others guide you in your decision but we will have the front shafts back in stock on Monday and ref the fitting,

the early defender axle will have separate thick (FRC5806) drive flanges,in which case it will have AEU2522 CV's and out early (CVE) type of CV will fit,

if you have separate thin flanges (RUC105200) then our later type (CVL) will fit straight in,

if you have the early type RRC or disco type of CV with a separate flange/stub then it's a bit more complicated, if you have the suffix A axle with 606665 CV's you can either do a small machining mod to your stubs to give some clearance for the CVE type or but new modified stubs at £ 100/pr, if you have the suffix B axle with the separate CV that takes the small 32 spline halfshaft then you will need to buy the modified stubs at £ 100/pr,

Dave

[Retroanaconda]

Bear in mind the later of the earlier axles (if you get my drift), around the 200Tdi era, had the weakest possible combination. 10-spline diffs and 32-spline CVs. Earlier ones had 10-spline diffs but the stronger (AEU2522) 23-spline CVs. And the much later (300Tdi on) axles had 24-spline axles and 32-spline CVs.

So the strongest setup is a 24-spline diff (your ARB will sort that) and 23-spline CVs (AEU2522s, or KAM/Ashcroft replacements). You will need aftermarket shafts for this, as you're mating the two strongest types, which were never put together in production!

KAM CVs do have the separate stub-shaft, which may be a selling point for you.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

OK Then

1st, Yes I work for KAM , so you COULD argue I am maybe biased - I 'aint

so what I say is my thoughts, if someone does or doesn't buy them fromk KAM

is there choice and no skin off my nose

Ashcroft CVs are IMVHO about as good as you can get, no, they are not cheap, but then qulaity is not

and frankly neither is our "Option its wallet hurty bigtime" you pays yer money and all that,

BOTH CV systems are kin good qulaity - as to which is "Best" I don't know, how would I ?

Whilst I do noty know of ANYTHING better than an ashcroft

CV I do know of something good and DIFFERENT which is the KAM System, better NO.... DIFFERENT

BUT

There is a Fundemental difference between the 2 options of Ashctroft and KAM I will try to explain why

and what I see between the 2.

OK

Ashcrofts Units

About as good as it gets, I do not know of anything better than them, not cheap, and a easy simple

direct staright replacment, good warranty, and more than a few here will buy them and be happy with them.

KAM

I think arguing apart quality of the bits is as good, BUT HOW they work is very different.

I work on the basis that nothing is unbreakable, christ I've broken LOADS of stuff in my time, and I am sure I will break more

and thus when I looked at an upgarde (was Ashcroft Shafts LR 606662 CVs Quaiffe Stubs and Falnges - I was destroying the CVs

I looked at Both.

What drew me to Kam (apart from the staff discount was the "Fuseable link" thats not the same as the "Missing Link" - that

sits behind the wheel , but the idea is that if you accept NOTHING is unbreakable then warranmty claims apart when and IF

an ashcroft CV breaks you will be out of the game take a fair time to replace and your day (unless you have spares) is over

With the Kam System the CV is "Tuned" (that a posh way of saying a ferkin educated Guess) that the stub will SHEER

and cleanly at a preset place before you do the expensive damage to diffs, lockers shafts etc, forget my recent exlosion in

the front axle that was the pinion berarings collapsing

10 mins and a spare shaft you back in the game, and no sharpenel in the axle to be of concern for say the rest of the day, its a clean

break, not a big bang.

The million dollar question is how strong are the stubs, answer ferkin strong :

LOTS of horsepower and sillyness :

No broken stubs, and I aint going to get into an arguement re specs, data, or anoraky arguements re materials treatments etc

I made a choice and that was for a fuse link, I also told myself if it turned out I blew them every 5 mins I would change, I kept

the quaffie stuf for a while, and then once I was ghappy they didn't go ping at the 1st "Larging it in I innit M8 " I sold them

I have carried a stub for a year, haven't used it, if and when I do they are £30 to replace.

Frankly you have to make a personal call, ashcrofts or KAM BOTH IMVHO are superb, your call, you may never ever break a

Ashcroft CV in which case lovely, you may equally as me never break a fuse link, lovely, so why then would I have bought the KAM system

vs the Ashcroft ?

And thats the rub, different peeps will have differing views, BOTH systems offer significant strength over std and other aftermarket junk

both will serve you well, both are expensive, but thats cos they are expensive systems to produce, frankly I doubt

many will use either to their limits and as such many will never be dissapointed with either system.

Last point is I guess the answer "How many stubs do I sell in a months etc to people breaking them" ?

Answer in 12 months about 4, all basically said "I was being well dafty - and fully expected something to go BANG" would

the ashcroft CV have broken I really don't know, but importnat pointy STUBS from KAM are NOT warranty.

Choose either both a bloody good units

If you wnat shafts we have them in stock, the stubs for the CV Kits there are 2 x types, Long (AEU2522 type) and short

300 type, and we supply bushes to convert the various LR stylees of stubs and bushings

Now,

I am a mod here, and I am a KAM employee, if ANYONE esp Dave or Ian at Ashcrofts feel the above is untrue, misleading, or an abuse

of my positionm please PM ANY of the A&M team and I am happy for it to be deletede, these are MY personal views, you decide for yourself,

but EITHER Over standard stuff is a giant leap forward in stength reliablity and quality

The end

Nige

PS

Kevin

None of this (ie esp the above video) should in any way reflect in any future "Warranty" claims from Moi (boss)

[zim]

Dave & Nige - thanks for your replies...

I'll do some more research when i'm back and see what i can do

Cheers

Gordon

[white90]

This Thread would be better for the Views of non affiliated people

it reads far too much like an Advert.

I had Ashcroft CVs never ever had an Issue and the service was first class

I ran Maxidrive shafts these were the very best available at the time and cost me £880 cash

at the time.

Great to be given details of products

but people with nothing to gain/Lose posting up would be ideal.

[Daan]

Al I can add to this is this:

WAY to much throttle!

Daan

[Steve Hiatt]

I would assume I'm one of Ashcroft's higher powered users with an LS7 engine. I've had their shafts and CVs for about three years now doing French Tout Terrain rallyes, AWDC and BCCC Championship, a tarmac sprint and a run up a drag strip (12 secs, 110 mph). No breakages, perfect service.

I don't like the fused arrangement from Kam, it makes no allowance for different strengths of drivetrain. I haven't used them but a close competitor who I serviced next to did a few years ago. They broke too often for my liking, we had the same engine and transmission, his car was lighter, I broke less stuff. To be fair he's probably a harder driver.

I do break the odd prop UJ but this seems improved with GKN HD joints.

As Daan alludes some mechanical sympathy may be the cheapest route

[will4x4]

Im going to be in the same position soon and am to uncertain which is better....what i don't understand is why cant KAM or Ashcroft professionally test each others products on a machine head to head to see which is stronger - post a video of it and therefore use that as their USP....

i suppose this would be better for KAM being the "underdog" surely a machine to twist a shaft head to head must be relatively easy to do... and for CV/s you could twist it at varying degrees before it blows if that makes sense..

wow if it works and one is stronger that the other what a selling point and you will have my order + im sure many more

[white90]

Ashcrofts have this machine already.

[outdoor_ian]

Did anyone mention forum discount !!!

[Milemarker Type S]

Having spent lots of time around people competing with both KAM and Ashcroft kit... my money will be heading for Ashcroft... quality products and top quality after sales service time and time again...

[will4x4]

Im thinking ashcroft to for the obvious reasons.... but i do like to support the underdog and my local business on the other hand..hence the above post (proof is in the pudding) and all

[BogMonster]

Ashcrofts have this machine already.

And here it is

[mickeyw]

Im going to be in the same position soon and am to uncertain which is better....what i don't understand is why cant KAM or Ashcroft professionally test each others products on a machine head to head to see which is stronger - post a video of it and therefore use that as their USP....

i suppose this would be better for KAM being the "underdog" surely a machine to twist a shaft head to head must be relatively easy to do... and for CV/s you could twist it at varying degrees before it blows if that makes sense..

wow if it works and one is stronger that the other what a selling point and you will have my order + im sure many more

It would be too pleasing to find your competitor's product was stronger than your own

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

$12,000 of independant testing done for MoD Contractors : http://www.kamdiffs.com/four_by_four.php?l=HD_Shafts&link=HD_Shafts0171

Broke all shafts sent- and reported (see graphs)- failed to break the CV

Nige

[gazelle]

Im going to be in the same position soon and am to uncertain which is better....what i don't understand is why cant KAM or Ashcroft professionally test each others products on a machine head to head to see which is stronger - post a video of it and therefore use that as their USP....

i suppose this would be better for KAM being the "underdog" surely a machine to twist a shaft head to head must be relatively easy to do... and for CV/s you could twist it at varying degrees before it blows if that makes sense..

wow if it works and one is stronger that the other what a selling point and you will have my order + im sure many more

I would say that this type of testing would need to be done by an independent respected third party to be able to provide a report that would be perceived as unbiased.

Both Ian (Ashcrofts) and Nige (KAM) have been very fair to each other in this thread and have not slagged each other's products. It would have been easy to dip into a "my product is better than yours", but neither have. Instead they have been describing what is good about their products (positive stuff). I don't see that very often so hats of to you both.

Although so of this thread could be perceived as advertising, I personally have learned a lot about options that I could take up later if needed, so thank you guys.

I have enjoyed the good technical discussion about the different approaches.

Cheers

Martin

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I learnt 30+ Years ago the 1st rule of sales is respecting and not knocking your competition

Frankly, for the vast majority of people who buy EITHER System, both are so

significantly stronger and advanced than std or aftermarket junk that only a few owners

will even use them in anger enough to reach the limits, let alone exceed them.

As for Dave, I have to be nice to him, where else and who else would have sorted me my new gearbox

without sniggering (too much) at me

Nige

[will4x4]

Good read there and clear figures as to it's breaking strength.... So we may be able to put this to bed if Ashcroft have the same figures on their site?

[Bowie69]

Similar to this then:

http://www.ashcroft-.../cv%20graph.JPG

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/images/uploads/front%20halfshaft.JPG

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/images/uploads/rear%20halfshaft.JPG

[will4x4]

ok i cant remember my A level physics how do you compare torque Nm to foot pounds (FT LBS) any ideas (i will have a google)?

i know this is not a completely fair test but would be interesting to see how the two companies rate the standard OEM stuff too as may need to take that difference in percentage into consideration...

On a separate note what were suggesting cant be new and one of the companies must have surely compared these results and drawn them up already...thats sales.

[Bowie69]

The KAM graphs are in ft/lbs as well as NM, the Ashcroft ones are in ft/lbs.....

[will4x4]

Just want to add i am going to buy a set and this is not done in any way to antagonize the companies mentioned..i suppose if another company developed a stronger main shaft for the 8274 as an example again you would be interested to compare the breaking strengths.

hope this is OK