Tomas Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Gentlemen, After about 12 years of seamless operation the Solenoid on the Bosh starter from my 300TDI given up. I took it out cleaned inside out, greased, contacts polished, etc. But it just wont get the solenoid to pull strong enough and the starter just turns idle. So, I'm evaluation various options and would welcome your advice: - Can I replace only the Solenoid? - If so, any idea where can I get one and what part number am I looking for? (I'm based in Germany) - If I'm replacing the whole starter, which should I go for? Paddock has two complete models: - Bosh for some GBP 170,- or - Britpart for some GBP 80,- When it still worked, the engine normally started on first click. But during the cold nights, the first half turn was not enough. In those situations, it looked like the Solenoid retracted too early and I had to try 3 or 4 times before the engine started. Would that indicate more severe problem that would not be solved just by Solenoid replacement? Also, I intend to run this car just for one more year before it will be replaced with much younger brother of the same kind. So, I better be saving for the new one then spending too much on the old one. Hence the questions if I decide to go for new starter, shall I consider the Britpart at all? Other posts in this forum suggests not, but people, I need it only for one year. Any advice is welcomed, Thx in advance, Tomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 No experience of the blue box motors, but I have been through a few motors over the years. I had three Valeo motors in a row, the first two lasted 60k each, the third is still fitted to the Disco AFAIK (now with it's new owner). I fitted a Bosch motor, it lasted more than 100K, and when it failed it was a mechanical failure, probably caused by me cranking it about 50m on the starter motor, with a 3.5T trailer on the back . The Bosch aftermarket motor is not the same as a Bosch Gen. Parts motor. The aftermarket one has several cheaper parts inside, including having no dust cap around the solenoid plunger. The lower solenoid is from a gen parts Bosch motor, the upper one from an aftermarket Bosch motor. I rebuilt the aftermarket motor into a gen parts casing as a spare. Wood Auto lists the following part numbers for Bosch solenoids for the LR motor : 9330331002, 0331303165 if that helps you to source one. EDIT : This page lists some other cross-ref numbers. No way to know which ones are really valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 There have been quite a few reports of poor performance, or failure, from Britpart starter motors. I would avoid them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potato head Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 A friend of mine replaced his with a Britpart one and he was non too impressed when it failed after 6 months. Have you thought about putting one on from a breakers if your only running for another year? You could get a whole starter for £30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Thx a lot for your advices - really appreciated! OK, I'll not push my lack with the Britpart. I found one solenoid (0331303165) in Germany here: http://www.landyscheune-shop.de/magnetschalter-anlasser-2-5-d-td-tdi-bosch.html Would you say that EUR 79.23 is a fair price? Also, TDS mentioned two Bosh solenoid numbers (9330331002, 0331303165) is there a way to figure out which one I need - without taking the starter out again? Not that I would be lazy, but I have no garage and the weather is not really montage friendly today. Thx, Tomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Also, I just registered with breakers just now and waiting responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Wood Auto (linked above) says £20 and in stock. Even with VAT and shipping you ought to have some change from 80 euros? I'm pretty sure the two solenoids in the picture were actually interchangeable, so there's every chance that either of the listed numbers will fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Yap - Wood Auto has the best deal, but they only ship within UK and I'm in Germany. But thanks anyway - at least I know the exact par number that I'm looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillis Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 How much do they weigh and how much to ship to germany? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 OK. I got a new solenoid from UK. Eactly the same as featured by TSD on his picture. It worked fine for about 5 days and now I have almost the same problem again. The starter turns, but the solenoid seems not to have enough power to push the jagged wheel out. So, it spins idly without turning the engine. Any ideas are welcomed. Thx, Tomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Did you clean the mechanism on the end of the starter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 And a reply to Phillis: The solenoid weights cca 0.5 Kg I Got it from LRDirect: Products Ordered Code Product Item Price Quantity Total STC1245.Z8 STC1245 £27.00 1 £27.00 Subtotal: £27.00 Shipping cost: £11.00 VAT 20.000%: £7.60 Total: £45.60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 Yes. I did not dismantle this area, but I sprayed it with silicon oil and moved quite freely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 OK - the question is what is the definition of "freely" right? ;-) So, my impression was that the resistance was the same, or just a little more then the on that is produced by the spring in the solenoid. But I'll have to get it all out again anyway - so, I'll test the resistance without the solenoid on. This should tell. Thx anyway - I'll keep you posted about my progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 OK - I'm officially clue less now. I took the starter apart till the last screw. Sprayed with Balistol oil all over. The jagged wheel moves up and down if just just breathe to it. And still, sometimes it comes out and sometimes it does not. The success to start is 25% (like 1 out of 4 tries). Now - any idea is more then welcomed. Thx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poohbear Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Any chance this is an electrical rather than mechanical issue? Is the solenoid getting enough juice to operate properly? Just a thought. Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fozsug Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Agree with ^^^^^^^^^. sounds more electrical.Check the connections are clean an tight. Check the link connectors. Check the earths on the vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potato head Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I've had an issue before with the throw out mechanism being jammed. The gear end was all fine along with the solenoid but the mech between the two wasn't slowing one to work the other. Once properly stripped and rebuilt all was good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Still no luck. The mechanics, including the throw out mechanism, are cleaner and operating better then when new. The electrical problem was a good hit, but I'm not that good in electrics. So, I have intercepted the cable that brings power to the solenoid (the exciter feed) with voltmeter. I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but this seems to be OK. I put it on youtube. .I was also checking the "300TDi Disco starter motor" from Les. And noticed some cabling differences: a) On the 8Th picture from top, Les says that there is a main connection - he has one cable coming there. I have three cables coming to this bolt. b) On the same picture (and detailed on picture 12), there is an Earth cable connected to the bottom bolt. I don't have this cable. So, it could be a electric problem, but how come it started only now? Also, how do I fix this? I have no ideas what are those cables and what to do with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 That's a very low voltage to be getting to the starter motor... not enough I would say. If you don't have an earth strap from battery or chassis to engine, fit one! The three connections are pprobably just the alternator charging wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Thx for advice. I was measuring only the power getting to the exciter. When I measure the voltage getting to the starter motor - the bolt with the 3 cables, I was getting some 54 V. However, as you could see/hear at the video, the starter turns OK and if (occasionally) the jagged wheel gets out - there is no problem to turn the engine. I'm going to pull a dedicated cable between battery earth and the bottom starter bolt to see if it makes a difference. The cabling differences is visible here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 The extra wires to the top bolt are usually the power feed from the alternator, and to the fusebox or glowplug supply. The ground wire at the starter bolt is not on all vehicles in my experience, but it is a good idea. I have found significant resistance between the starter motor and the earth lead on the transfer box - far more than I expected. As potato head says, the problem is most likely in the throwout mechanism, either it's jammed, or more likely it's just worn out. It could be worth measuring the voltage at the solenoid drive terminal, instead of the main feed. If the pinion gear isn't coming out, then it's likely all the power is being drawn through this terminal, as the motor isn't yet running at full power. EDIT : Ignore the last line, I hadn't seen your post above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 I'm giving up. Have look .I took the starter out again and wired it outside the car. You can see that the drive comes out with no problem at all. When I put it back in the car and just screw the 3 main cables together (without attaching it to the main feed on the solenoid) and only connect the exciter cable, I can hear the driver popping up and down. When I connect only the main power supply, but not the exciter - nothing happens at all. And when I connect it all, the starter tuns, but the drive does not come out. I could go on like this for another two weeks - but I have enough. I'm going to buy the whole starter. p.s.: anybody interested to buy almost new solenoid? ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I'm giving up. When I put it back in the car and just screw the 3 main cables together (without attaching it to the main feed on the solenoid) and only connect the exciter cable, I can hear the driver popping up and down. When I connect only the main power supply, but not the exciter - nothing happens at all. And when I connect it all, the starter tuns, but the drive does not come out. Well if you're giving up, you have nothing left to lose but time and the skin on your knuckles... You've had the motor apart completely... did you remove the throwout lever from the motor body? If you did... is the fulcrum bolt eccentric (so that rotating the bolt moves the fulcrum of the lever)? It may be adjusted at the factory to set the engagement. If it is... did you put it back at the same angle? In any case, if it does adjust the angle (never checked on these motors), then you might be able to adjust some slack out of the mechanism (so the pinion gear tries to move sooner, before the motor spins up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Wow. Actually, the answer to all those questions is yes, but I just did not thought about adjusting the slack. The problem is that I do not have any more time to try this now. I have to hit the route as I need to be on the other side of Germany tomorrow early morning. Then, I'll have no chance to look at this again until next weekend. And if it does not work, I'll be waiting yet another week for the part to be delivered. So - I have to order now anyway and I can try your advice next weekend. It with works, I'll have solenoid and a starter for sale ;-) Thx for all your help and advices - really appreciated. Tomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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