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Jamest535

bio-fuel

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Our local council our going to start to use bio-fuel for there lorrys and vans etc. Says dont cost much to convert. So my question is,

Is bio-fuel the best way to go or not or half bio-fuel and half diesel?

Does it bugger ur disco up??

James

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The old 200tdi will run perfectly well on 90% veggi oil (new not reclaimed) and 10% diesel. I've been told although never tried it myself that the 300 tdi will work ok on 80% veggi oil, so I cant see any problem with running either of the 2 engines on properly refined bio diesel. Ran a car in Spain last week on bio diesel, its cheaper than regular stuff, was a new 1.5 DCI Clio 2006 engine.

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Oh and you can run an older Disco on central heating oil mixed to 80%, a mate runs his on that and its cheap.. and doesnt smell as bad as veggi!

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my tdi doesnt like more than 65% new veg oil, starts to loose revs above that mix. mind you its tweaked so that probably effects it. the main problem is chipfat is thicker so it doesnt burn as fast, or spray as well from the injectors. the actual mix you can run depends on the ambent temp, i run 60-65% all summer but have to drop to around 40% by the time we get frost. other wise it gets really rough & smokes like mad.

used chipfat is better if you have time/space to filter it as once its heated it breaks down the molicules so its thinner than new. you could also heat new oil & use that. i've never found an answer as to how hot/how long it needs though. unless you rigged up a barrel/old emersion tank to do it i cant see it being very practical either.

as far as i know bio-diesel you can run 100%, its still effectivly diesel just from a different base stock. if you couldnt run it 100% would any garages sell it? cant expect the average driver to understand fuel mixing etc, its not something you need to understand to drive normally is it?

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just remembered something else, if you do play running chipfat carry a spare fuel filter with you. because the fuel is thicker it drags all the dirt from the tank & pipes through. took about 600miles for my disco to get lumpy & sluggish when i started using chipfat. should only need to change the filter once then revert to the normal service intervals.

come to think of it, my filter was overdue for replacement when i played with chipfat the 1st time. so you may get away without changing it, but i'd carry one incase its not much of an investment incase you need it.

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My old Citroen Xantia which ran on 95% pure 'new' veggi had its lowest emisions reading at the MOT for years! the guy doing the test said it was something to do with the way that veggi oil cleans the injectors or something? I should never have sold that car!

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I plan on converting my 200tdi to run on rape seed oil. My understanding is that this is pretty similar to veg oil, but I can't find a suppier of Waste Veg Oil here.

When running 100% veg, a 2 tank setup is recomended, starting and stopping on diesel and switching to veg only when hot. The veg fuel lines go through a heat exchanger as when the oil is cold and more viscous, it doesn't burn too well.

Apparently veg oil gives lower emmissions, a smoother more torquey power.

The main problem with veg is that it thickens your engine oil. You can either change your oil more frequently or use a bio engine oil, which is less prone to thickening.

http://www.elsbett.com/ie/online-shop.html

These people do conversion kits which seems to include a 2nd tank, filters, electric fuel pump, temp sensor, fuel lines, coolant lines, coolant heat exchanger, relays and switchover for 950euro for a 200tdi.

Doesn't seem to bad to me and I'm considering this setup. (no connection etc.)

Biodiesel can be used in place of regular diesel but is AIUI not very environmentally friendly, in terms of enery costs for production and producing glycerine as a waste product.

Hope this helps. Let us know how you get on.

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Biodiesel can be used in place of regular diesel but is AIUI not very environmentally friendly, in terms of enery costs for production and producing glycerine as a waste product.

But think of the fun things you can make with glycerine :D

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But think of the fun things you can make with glycerine

rc model shops sell liquid nitro...that'd start a bonfire well :ph34r:

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After reading this post and talking to a few people at the meeting last night i decided to run my 200tdi 90 on a vegi-diesel mix.

I have put 15ltrs of vegi with 20ltrs of diesel and its running outside now with no problems apart from the smell ;) .

Cheapest veg i could fnd was 58p a ltr.

will let you all know how i get on B)

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Sainsburys are doing 3 litre bottles of Vege oil for £1.62...... :)

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Sainsburys are doing 3 litre bottles of Vege oil for £1.62...... :)

I make that 81.5p/l, once you've paid fuel duty on it (27.1p/l, I think?*). That's a useful saving over 95p/l for diesel (cheapest I can find it round here, including 47.1p/l fuel duty), even though you're starting with a more expensive fuel - the diesel is only 47.9p/l compared to 54p/l for the vege oil, not including duty.

I guess if you only do low mileage then if you play it by the book it's probably not worth the hassle of filling in the tax declaration every month, but now I'm running a diesel I'm taking a serious look at it. Based on the above prices, though, it would only save me about £170 a year (based on using 70l a week and running 1/3rd vegetable oil) - which is only a 4.7% saving.

Biopowers' V100 modified waste vegetable fat looks more appealing, at 70-75p/l and safe to use at 100% instead of mixing with diesel (£954/year / 26.3% saving), but there aren't any agents round here (or, so far as I can find out, any other biofuel outlets). Just looked on a couple of the agents websites - looks like it's more like 80-85p/l, which maybe only means £306/year / 8.5% saving. And that assumes I run on it all the time, which isn't realistic even if I had an agent round the corner.

Sorting out a supply of waste oil (potentially free, so just the duty to pay) would, again based on 1/3 waste oil to 2/3 diesel, save £1080/year / 30.1%, but involve a lot more hassle. I'm prepared to go to a fair bit of trouble to save over a grand, but I'm not sure if the time involved collecting and filtering it, as well as carefully recording everything and doing the tax paperwork, would be practical.

Go one better and turn the waste oil into bio diesel and, ignoring the cost of reactants (fairly cheap, I'd guess - not sure how much you need) I could be looking at tax only - a saving of £2566/year / 71.5%. Bit more hassle than just filtering the oil, but starting to look worth it - unfortunately I don't have anywhere I could keep the plant :(

Both waste oil options, again, aren't realistically going to go in every tankful, which makes takes a bit of a shine off the figures.

What does that leave? Convert the truck to a duel fuel system, with a pre-heater for the oil? Run on waste oil it could achieve close to the savings for bio diesel, but I'd have to invest a bit up front in a second fuel tank, pump, heater, etc., plus a stack of time fitting it. Devalueing the truck (would it?) isn't really an issue for me, but what would insurance companies make of it?

Of course it all looks much more appealing if you absent mindedly fail to notify the tax man, but I don't particuraly fancy the potential consequences of that (and).

I get the distinct impression the government aren't actually interested in reducing fossil fuel carbon emissions... :angry:

* - I can't find a straight answer to this anywhere. Possibly it's a fuel substitute under the terms of the THE HYDROCARBON OIL DUTIES ACT 1979; section 1, in which case it's taxed at the same rate as diesel (47.1p/l). This would make food oil bought from the supermarket even more expensive than fossil fuel diesel (it would be 101.1p/l, based on the Sainsburys oil), and even used oil probably too expensive to be worth the hassle.

Fuel Duty Rates

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One of the Shire LRC members, james morfee, has posted here a few times about bio-diesel. He's well into it and has run a 90, 109 and now a 300TDi Disco on veg oil and now makes his own bio-diesel and is registered as a fuel producer - pays the tax all above board and everything. A quick search should turn up some useful stuff.

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running new cooking oil atracts the same level of duty as mineral diesel, as it is classed as a diesel replacement, so the tax is actually 47.2p per litre, so if you go legal, it'll cost you more than running dino diesel. :angry:

shafted by the government again........ :(

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running new cooking oil atracts the same level of duty as mineral diesel, as it is classed as a diesel replacement, so the tax is actually 47.2p per litre, so if you go legal, it'll cost you more than running dino diesel. :angry:

shafted by the government again........ :(

I had a nasty suspicion that was the case :(

Guess I'll have to carry on destroying the planet then - what a wonderful government we have :angry:

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a fuel is taxed at 27.1p/l but a fuel additive is taxed at 47.8?p/l & because you mix veg & diesel they changed the rules, called it an additive & upped the tax.

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a fuel is taxed at 27.1p/l but a fuel additive is taxed at 47.8?p/l & because you mix veg & diesel they changed the rules, called it an additive & upped the tax.

So I presume if you were to install a second tank and dual fuel system, as you would not be mixing the fuels you would pay only 27.1p/l duty?

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i think that you still should pay the higher rate as your not using the chipfat as the only fuel. i wouldnt claim to know if this is correct though. it was the impression i got on a chipfat forum i used to use, said forum has now vanished so i cant point you towards it. shame as it was full of knowledge & hints. anyone who wants to go looking for it it was run by goat industries.

ring your local customs office & ask. i seem to remember that the answers varied between offices, so keep ringing till you find the answer you want & get them to do the paperwork :D

personally i wouldnt go twin tank, as i KNOW id forget to switch back to diesel most of the time & therefore have all the issues of running too much cold fat anyway.

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i think that you still should pay the higher rate as your not using the chipfat as the only fuel.

But then surely you'd be taxed as petrol when running on a duel fuel LPG/petrol system, then? You'd certainly be on fairly strong ground arguing the case here.

personally i wouldnt go twin tank, as i KNOW id forget to switch back to diesel most of the time & therefore have all the issues of running too much cold fat anyway.

It ought to be fairly straightforward to arrange a shutdown circuit to purge to diesel before killing the engine. Probably have to use a separate switch though - suspect there'd be legal (not to mention safety...) issues with the ignition switch not killing the engine immediately.

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It ought to be fairly straightforward to arrange a shutdown circuit to purge to diesel before killing the engine. Probably have to use a separate switch though - suspect there'd be legal (not to mention safety...) issues with the ignition switch not killing the engine immediately.

Only what a turbo timer does on performance vehicles.... ;)

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agreed thats all a turbo timer does.

as i said i wouldnt claim to understand the rules, im just going on what i saw on that other forum before it vanished off the net.

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Biopowers' V100 modified waste vegetable fat looks more appealing, at 70-75p/l and safe to use at 100% instead of mixing with diesel (£954/year / 26.3% saving), but there aren't any agents round here

For any Irish based people, I was pointed to this site.

http://www.eilishoils.com/

You have to collect from them in bulk but are offering PPO at 67c per Litre + VAT.

There's also a good bit of info on the site about running your engine on PPO

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I've just found a biodiesel supplier in rowley regis west midlands.

straight from the pump 72p per litre

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