Another tray back in build...

[will_warne]

It might just be me working slow, but unless there was a small army working on that car there is no way it was built in 10 days.

Really bad front suspension geometry, looks like a recipe for chronic bump steer, no articulation and a bent axle case.

Yep, the geometry's horrible. If you're going to all this trouble at least do the job properly. Also, if you're welding on new mounts and putting the engine in a new location then, FFS, use a single upper and 2 lower links. Much, much, better. Oh, and did you see the shockmounts? Scary

I'm also not convinced about the chassis. The only reason I've ever looked at spaceframe is to allow you to put the suspension mounts where you want them and the axle beams higher up in relation to standard (ie put portals under the vehicle without it being hugely tall with a high CoG and still maintain good articulation). What they've done here isn't terribly clever IMHO; the separation between the 2 chassis rail replacement bars is small with a poor contact area to the remaining chassis. Also note the total lack of horizontal cross triangulation. That thing is going to bend, bigtime! Oh, and all this effort to save possibly a few kgs and they haven't even thought about moving the spring and shock mounts considerably.

If they don't SVA the vehicle they're bending the rules hugely. Hmm, replacement engine, transmission and axles, massively modified suspension and radically altered chassis. Oh dear, you have NO points left!

I also don't see any winches yet. That could be a problem.....

Also, if he likes Jeep parts sooooo much; why not use the Jeep as the base vehicle????

Axles. If you use the right bits inside a Rover case you'll be strong enough to run 37s and parts will be easier to find. Also, a shaved Salisbury would have been a very easy way to get more strength at the back and keep some more of the vehicle LR based.

Oh, and this is not a true trayback either. Where's the tray?

[najw]

So if this and vehicles like it turn up to an event where scruineering requires road legal vehicles what will happen? It needs an SVA for the tube conversion. NO SVA no entry?? Somehow I doubt it but it needs to happen. (Same for people running non-approved tyres.)

But is it up to the scrutineers to decide that it needs an SVA?

Assuming the donor vehicle had a V5 and Tax, the vehicle turns up with a tax disc and is therefore road legal in the eyes of the scrutineers?

In theory at least, until it goes for its next MOT and is rumbled, there's nothing to stop it being used on the road.

[najw]

Axles. If you use the right bits inside a Rover case you'll be strong enough to run 37s

Depends how you drive

This guy has a very heavy right foot !

[dollythelw]

lattice brace between the upper and lower rails and it wont need the back to back triangulation of an all encompassing "spaceframe" - sorted.

interesting portals and COG arguement Will, how tall is the average challenge truck???? and how much of that is sprung weight??

God I hope putting powerful american based engines doesnt catch on

how much does it cost for the magic beans and fairy dust necessary to beef a Rover axle up??

[will_warne]

lattice brace between the upper and lower rails and it wont need the back to back triangulation of an all encompassing "spaceframe" - sorted.

interesting portals and COG arguement Will, how tall is the average challenge truck???? and how much of that is sprung weight??

God I hope putting powerful american based engines doesnt catch on

how much does it cost for the magic beans and fairy dust necessary to beef a Rover axle up??

Jez, on the portal thing, my idea was to push the axle upwards a couple of inches giving an overall lift of about 2" at the hub over stock. That's no go on a standard chassis so spaceframe it is. CoG is already high, as you say, but its higher on most of the portal vehicles I've seen running 303s on LRs. The vehicles also aren't running a significantly increased track. Its not a critisism of the guys who built the vehicles as they've done a good job; they're getting the best out of a vehicle not designed for portals. They've gained ground clearance but lost some stability.

How tall's the average challenge truck? I guess about 6 and a half feet. Portals add annother 6", I guess. Sprung weight, most of it I think the biggest stability issue is the the cab and cage; its a lot of weight high up.

Jez, you've done the uprated Rover axle thing so you know its not cheap BUT parts are easy and cheap to find in the UK (what happens if you loose a wheel bearing, break TRE, damage a calliper etc on a D44 on the first day of a 2 day event?). Those D44s wouldn't have been cheap either; you've still got diff centres and shafts to buy. The only saving is no Toyota centres or diff pegging.

[dollythelw]

shove the engine and box further back, cut new chassis rails and weld it all together - cheap solution? wold save the pain of a bespoke chassis, the second way is not to bother with lift kits, Im on stock height suspension and it seems quite happy, Ive only had it wobble once and it was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY over, Im on a fat track though so that helps but dont forget that axle and tyre mass is helpful on sideslopes - hence the rockcrawl monkeys running monster weight axle setups with featherweight chassis

Im not sure how much Tim is knocking out his Dana axles for - maybe this is a good advert for him to show off a stronger cheaper axle but I dont know how cheap is cheap anyone know what he's punting these out for??

I think if I was to beef a rover axle up these days I would just chuck Michelles toy kit at it, Ive got 2 Tr2 cars to do and they have to have stock casings so they will end up that way

[will_warne]

shove the engine and box further back, cut new chassis rails and weld it all together - cheap solution? wold save the pain of a bespoke chassis, the second way is not to bother with lift kits, Im on stock height suspension and it seems quite happy, Ive only had it wobble once and it was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY over, Im on a fat track though so that helps but dont forget that axle and tyre mass is helpful on sideslopes - hence the rockcrawl monkeys running monster weight axle setups with featherweight chassis

Im not sure how much Tim is knocking out his Dana axles for - maybe this is a good advert for him to show off a stronger cheaper axle but I dont know how cheap is cheap anyone know what he's punting these out for??

I think if I was to beef a rover axle up these days I would just chuck Michelles toy kit at it, Ive got 2 Tr2 cars to do and they have to have stock casings so they will end up that way

Yeah, I think you're monster track helps you. Yep, with tyres that are as big as yours I don't think you could go any lower but you must still have about 4" - 6" of lift overall. On 35" - 37" tyres that's probably more than you need to prevent tyre and body issues. The thing about 303s is they're not that heavy. I know it helps but they're not in the same league as 404s.

Yeah, some of the Toy parts are very good. The only thing that stopped me doing it is spares availability over here. My aim was only ever for reliabilty on 35" to 37" tyres using 400 odd lbft. My drive train should be up to that.

[dirtydiesel]

Axles. If you use the right bits inside a Rover case you'll be strong enough to run 37s and parts will be easier to find.

I think your living in cloud-cookoo-land will, A rover axle will not be reliable with 400lbft's of torque running on 37's

Unless your on goody AT's and you drive like a girl!

[dollythelw]

Yeah, I think you're monster track helps you. Yep, with tyres that are as big as yours I don't think you could go any lower but you must still have about 4" - 6" of lift overall. On 35" - 37" tyres that's probably more than you need to prevent tyre and body issues. The thing about 303s is they're not that heavy. I know it helps but they're not in the same league as 404s.

Yeah, some of the Toy parts are very good. The only thing that stopped me doing it is spares availability over here. My aim was only ever for reliabilty on 35" to 37" tyres using 400 odd lbft. My drive train should be up to that.

true, Ive got to drag the track width in though so it should prove interesting, (150mm reduction overall methinks) but I guess Im well over a 6" lift, how that balances out with a dropped and shoved motor and no body shell weight I dont know but it seems ok

the 303s arent any heavier than a salisbury but the wheel and tyre package is 75kgs a corner (also due for a diet)

I dont think spares availability is an issue though Will, I can usually get stuff faster from the US than I can from here I guess also if the drive train is up to it then spares consumption doesnt matter so much anyway?

what are you using to get the 400ft/lbs?

[will_warne]

true, Ive got to drag the track width in though so it should prove interesting, (150mm reduction overall methinks) but I guess Im well over a 6" lift, how that balances out with a dropped and shoved motor and no body shell weight I dont know but it seems ok

the 303s arent any heavier than a salisbury but the wheel and tyre package is 75kgs a corner (also due for a diet)

I dont think spares availability is an issue though Will, I can usually get stuff faster from the US than I can from here I guess also if the drive train is up to it then spares consumption doesnt matter so much anyway?

what are you using to get the 400ft/lbs?

Jez, I was thinking about spares availability mid event. ARB parts, halfshafts, R&P along with consumables I could probably find within 100 - 150 miles making an overnight repair possible.

DD, you may well be right but I do have the autobox which'll help. Only time will tell. If it breaks, I'll make it stronger. I'm still unsure about what size and flavour tyres I' going to be running; a lot depends on the rules and whether one of the options I'm looking at gets E marked in the next couple of months.

Jez, 400lbft is what I'm looking at for my engine with a fuel tweek and propane

[Mark90]

Will you'd get more ponies by removing the block that's under your right pedal

[dollythelw]

but if you use parts that can handle the power you wont need them mid event? I still cant get the idea of breaking a car in two days? why not build it to survive the whole event??? I think (as DD pointed out) I must be a soft southern poof

400ft/lb on gas is nice, I really must put mine on Rolands dyno in the autumn, how big a bottle are you going to run? should be interesting to see how the autobox stands up

[will_warne]

but if you use parts that can handle the power you wont need them mid event? I still cant get the idea of breaking a car in two days? why not build it to survive the whole event??? I think (as DD pointed out) I must be a soft southern poof

400ft/lb on gas is nice, I really must put mine on Rolands dyno in the autumn, how big a bottle are you going to run? should be interesting to see how the autobox stands up

I totally agree with the first point but I just like to think about the "what if...." scenarios. Look at Steve Lloyd; I've heard he had a mog axle break out in Ireland. Not what you'd expect but it happens...

Yeah, I'll be very interested to see how the box stands up. I think the first issue I may have is the small Tdi torque convertor; if it causes problems then I'll get the tdi to V8 'box conversion from M&D, use a V8 bellhousing and bung a 12" TC in there. The oil cooler should keep temperates down, though, which'll help the rest of the internals.

[dollythelw]

but the "what if's" are much more likely on parts that arent rated to the performance surely?

Im curious to see what broke on the 404s though and what caused it, still they are cheap axles so not a big prob

[will_warne]

but the "what if's" are much more likely on parts that arent rated to the performance surely?

Im curious to see what broke on the 404s though and what caused it, still they are cheap axles so not a big prob

It broke at the joint where it had been stitched back together (he runs narrows down axles).

[Paul Humphreys]

I totally agree with the first point but I just like to think about the "what if...." scenarios. Look at Steve Lloyd; I've heard he had a mog axle break out in Ireland. Not what you'd expect but it happens...

Yeah, I'll be very interested to see how the box stands up. I think the first issue I may have is the small Tdi torque convertor; if it causes problems then I'll get the tdi to V8 'box conversion from M&D, use a V8 bellhousing and bung a 12" TC in there. The oil cooler should keep temperates down, though, which'll help the rest of the internals.

OT

Will I have a 200tdi and a 3 speed Auto if you want to see the conversion plate.

Paul

[dirtydiesel]

I totally agree with the first point but I just like to think about the "what if...." scenarios. Look at Steve Lloyd; I've heard he had a mog axle break out in Ireland. Not what you'd expect but it happens...

It broke at the joint where it had been stitched back together (he runs narrows down axles).

The failure on steves truck at the weekend was purely down to killer axles who did a vastly inferior job of shortening the axles tubes.

[RPR]

For what it's worth, my 2 centimes...

303's are not the be all and the end all, but they are stronger than - or at least as strong as - a Dana 60 or Sals and you can run a substantially smaller tire to get the clearance on a 303 that would require something much larger on those, i.e. a 36" on a 303 is about the equivalent of a 42" on the 60/Sals. Furthermore, you are splitting the torque between a big R&P and the portal boxes, thereby further spreading the stress across the drive train. The track width is wider on a Series than standard so the CoG increase is less of an issue laterally - it is a definite issue fore & aft on an 88".

Short story: bang for buck, you can't get more for less than with the 303s. There isn't a Land Rover gearbox that won't go boom before these axles, and the amount of money you would have to put into even a 4.6 V8 to get it to worrysome levels is almost prohibitive. Unless you are in the 400 lbs/ft + torque range, they are going to hang in there.

There are some chaps doing Ford 9" based customs portals in the US - Portal-Tek (I think Jez knows them) -and that is probably as bullet proof as you can get, but they won't be cheap either.....

The fact is that other than the Sals and the ENV (closely related to the C303 EV11), there isn't a Rover axle that can take serious power, abuse, or large tires....

[will_warne]

The failure on steves truck at the weekend was purely down to killer axles who did a vastly inferior job of shortening the axles tubes.

Yep, I guessed it'd be the guys who shortened it who were to blame. I didn't know who did it, though.

It's a shame Steve keeps having problems as that truck should do very, very well.

[dollythelw]

hi RPR,

I agree - I dont think there is an ultimate axle, Russ, Rob and Scott are mates and when stuff does finally get going it will be a strong axle, bad news abut Steve, anyone got any pics?

Was it Dani at Tibus or Killeraxles in Utah that trimmed it Dan?

[will_warne]

I agree - I dont think there is an ultimate axle, Russ, Rob and Scott are mates and when stuff does finally get going it will be a strong axle

I'd agree, you're always looking at a compromise between weight, strength, cleance, stability and track.

Paul, I may take you up on the offer.

[dirtydiesel]

Yep, I guessed it'd be the guys who shortened it who were to blame. I didn't know who did it, though.

It's a shame Steve keeps having problems as that truck should do very, very well.

To be fair allthough the truck is very high maintainance ,

Its failings have mostly been down to suppliers letting him down.

Tomcat, tibus(killer axles), Jim, wilsons drive shafts, dave oribin to name but a few.

Some of last years failures were down to his winch system, which didn't help either.

Was it Dani at Tibus or Killeraxles in Utah that trimmed it Dan?

It was dani at tibus who trimmed it.

It now been welded by me and i'm reasonably confident about it,

Well, as confident as 3 roots and a cap can be.

[dollythelw]

I reckon 3 roots and a cap might just sort it

[will_warne]

To be fair allthough the truck is very high maintainance ,

Its failings have mostly been down to suppliers letting him down.

Tomcat, tibus(killer axles), Jim, wilsons drive shafts, dave oribin to name but a few.

Some of last years failures were down to his winch system, which didn't help either.

It was dani at tibus who trimmed it.

It now been welded by me and i'm reasonably confident about it,

Well, as confident as 3 roots and a cap can be.

Well, he is pushing the boundaries with that vehicle. I'm sure it'll come good very soon.