pugwash Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 So there seems to be a big thing at the moment for Laminovas. I understand what they are and how they work, but are they a good idea- surely you are just adding more heat into an already burdened system- especially for those of us running real engines that make proper noises? Wouldn't a 13 row mocal be more productive? I have just taken out a rad from a 92 rangie which has it's engine oil cooler as part of the radiator- why does no one seem to use these- are they carp? very rare? inefficient? what sort of cooler is required for a heavily used auto box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 This is what I've just been through when deciding how to cool my auto box. Wasn't keen on laminova for a few reasons, running a V8 so a potentially over stretched cooling system that may not be running very cool anyway, cost, keeping oil and water seperate (was it Simon Buck who had a laminova cooler dump water in the gear box oil?), plumbing issues. I tried to get some sort of figures for the cooling of a standard auto box oil cooler to compare to a mocal type, unsucessfully. Bish and Tim both run standard coolers with AFAIK no problems. I ended up going for a mocal cooler, and if it was going up front in good cool air flow I would probably have went for a 19 row cooler, I reckon a 13 row cooler would be better than the standard bog brush as I don't think they are that efficient. Given that mine was going in front of the bulkhead above the bell housing in hot air (due to space limitations up front) I decided I wanted at least a 25 row cooler, and in fact picked up a 34 row one at a good price on ebay (I guess there's not much demand for 34 row coolers). With a 9" fan (shifting about 600cfm) on the cooler the temperature didn't get above 80°C at 7S although that was with the fan running all the time off road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Well, I went Laminova for a couple of reasons. The first was packaging; its not easy to find a sensible place to mount an oil cooler in a 90. The second was that it gave one more cooler to fill up with mud and I could see big problems with airflow at low speed. I went for an open core ally rad from Allisport to help cope with the extra load and because I was already running a hotter running engine. I've found this works very well off road although I do get warm at motorway speed. This is down to poor airflow, though, rather than the cooling system itself. With a V8 I might think differantly; I've never know a diesel to overheat off road unless its got mechanical issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 but what about this rad i have with an oil cooler in it? does anyone konw anything about them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Baldwin Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 (was it Simon Buck who had a laminova cooler dump water in the gear box oil?), plumbing issues. Errr, yes it was, but when you plumb it up incorrectly in the first place what do you expect.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Errr, yes it was, but when you plumb it up incorrectly in the first place what do you expect.... Yep, he made a mistake reassembling it IIRC and the result was an autobox full of water. I think he'd be the first to admit it was a fault on his part, not the cooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Ah right, I had heard something about it an assumed it was a cooler failure. At least mine is idiot proof and even I can't connect it up wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Nah - if you connect yours up the wrong way the oil will actually get hotter Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 But if I change the polarity of the fan to counteract it'll be ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02GF74 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 So there seems to be a big thing at the moment for Laminovas. I understand what they are and how they work, but are they a good idea- surely you are just adding more heat into an already burdened system- especially for those of us running real engines that make proper noises? things I recall from shool physics many years ago a) liquids are better conductors for heat than gas B) newtons law of cooling - rate of heat transfer between 2 objects depends on the temperature differencebetween them. so from the above, the heat rom the oil will be removed mnore efficiently to the water - but a number of factors such as flow rate fo the liquids, tempereature, size of interface etc: so it is not possible to say which one is going to work better. ALso with laminova once the water is up to temp (termostat opened), it is unlikley to get much cooler as the thermostat closes. The other factor is getting rid of the heat and the only way we can do it is to pass it on to the surrounding air so as ^^^ says, if the water cooling system is at its limit, putting more heat into it isn't a top idea. If you have cold air flow or colder than the water temp, then a cooler like M90 is the way - you need to do the sums to figure out if it is better or not than dumping the heat into the water. In short, they are a good idea, efficient, compact but without knowing the full set up and conditoions of use, not possible to say if better than air cooled - they are popular of racing cars but those whizz round fast so get lot of forced cold air so the heat dumping into the water is not a concern, unlike offroading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nas90 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 This is what I've just been through when deciding how to cool my auto box.Wasn't keen on laminova for a few reasons, running a V8 so a potentially over stretched cooling system that may not be running very cool anyway, cost, keeping oil and water seperate (was it Simon Buck who had a laminova cooler dump water in the gear box oil?), plumbing issues. I tried to get some sort of figures for the cooling of a standard auto box oil cooler to compare to a mocal type, unsucessfully. Bish and Tim both run standard coolers with AFAIK no problems. I ended up going for a mocal cooler, and if it was going up front in good cool air flow I would probably have went for a 19 row cooler, I reckon a 13 row cooler would be better than the standard bog brush as I don't think they are that efficient. Given that mine was going in front of the bulkhead above the bell housing in hot air (due to space limitations up front) I decided I wanted at least a 25 row cooler, and in fact picked up a 34 row one at a good price on ebay (I guess there's not much demand for 34 row coolers). With a 9" fan (shifting about 600cfm) on the cooler the temperature didn't get above 80°C at 7S although that was with the fan running all the time off road. Mark, you should not be using one of those to cool the auto box. The single large diameter pipe with bristles welded around the edge like what is fitted by Land Rover is what you want. The NAS has one mounted in front of the engine radiator which is split to also cool engine oil. Alan who works at Chicester 4x4 did the same thing that you have done and had cooling problems due to the restricted flow rate on his V8 / Auto set-up. It's blingy no good mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Flow through the cooler shouldn't be a problem, LR themselves changed from the bog brush to a similar dimensioned, ie very long and thin, mocal type cooler. It is the same length as the bog brush, it uses the same mounts, and is probably 5 or 6 rows high. That would be much more restrictive to flow than a standard width 35 row cooler like I have fitted. I fitted that one because with my winch where is there simply isn't room up front for the standard bog brush. So far no cooling problems, will see how it goes, I do have a temp guage in the gearbox to monitor the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nas90 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Flow through the cooler shouldn't be a problem, LR themselves changed from the bog brush to a similar dimensioned, ie very long and thin, mocal type cooler. It is the same length as the bog brush, it uses the same mounts, and is probably 5 or 6 rows high. That would be much more restrictive to flow than a standard width 35 row cooler like I have fitted.I fitted that one because with my winch where is there simply isn't room up front for the standard bog brush. So far no cooling problems, will see how it goes, I do have a temp guage in the gearbox to monitor the situation. Mark, let us know how well it works long term and where you sourced parts. High flow rate is more important than fin area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I will keep an eye on things and let you know how it goes, only had one outing so far - Seven Sisters, drove there and back and two days off roading with temp only going above 80°C once and that was on a long road climb in 3rd when it got to about 85°C. The cooler came from e-bay and was about 1/3 the price of Demon Tweeks / Merlin Motorsport. It was 2nd hand but virtually as new condition. I would hope having 35 rows it should have reasonable flow. The hose is 1/2" ID which is much bigger bore than the standard metal pipes that run along the sump as they are 5/16" OD. The push on hose and connectors came from Demon Tweeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02GF74 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Mark, let us know how well it works long term and where you sourced parts. High flow rate is more important than fin area. the pressed plate mocal coolers are made to have small channels in between the plates/rows/fins. these are all connected to a tube at one end so since they are all in parallel, the more channels i.e. rows/fins/ there are, the less resistance to flow there is. Likewise the longer the channel, the more restrictive to flow it is. From your description of the LR cooler (long with 5/6 rows), that one is gonna be more restritive than M80 narrower but taller cooler. The other thing to watch out for is how high the cooler is mounted since the pump will have to pump oil against gravity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 The other thing to watch out for is how high the cooler is mounted since the pump will have to pump oil against gravity. Not so, since the oil's got to come back from where it's going so this cancels out, assuming no air in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02GF74 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Not so, since the oil's got to come back from where it's going so this cancels out, assuming no air in the system. yes so, it it cannot reach the cooler in the first place, it ain't going nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 But once it's got there, it falls all the way back down and drags more up behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 that's great guys but does anyone know anything about this rad with an inbuilt oil cooler i have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 that's great guys but does anyone know anything about this rad with an inbuilt oil cooler i have? Which sounds very similar to the stock rads also fitted to TDi defenders and Disco's. If you don't need the oil cooler part for the engine then I don't see any reason for not using this to cool the autobox. I've had no probs with similar rads on mine (other than the usual mud fill) though the fins an the disco one are now getting rather sparse with age (still does the job though even in the current warm weather). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Jim, The rad is peculiar to V8 Auto Rangies (and possibly V8 Discos). Engine oil cooler on the drivers side (same as Tdi disco's) and autobox oil cooler on the passenger side). Gearbox oil then leaves the rad and goes into the "bog brush" cooler. IMHO that setup is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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