Retroanaconda Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Ok, so I'm a bit confused and hopefully some of you guys can help me out here. Went to pick up a trailer yesterday and when we hitched it up the back end was 2" off the floor...so the tow-ball is a little high. Not massively surprising when you consider that it's a small car trailer and a big Land Rover. Not to worry, I have a slider plate thing back at the workshop (that came with the 90 when I bought it) so I'll put that on and pop back up to get the trailer another time. So I get down the workshop today and dig out the slider thing, unbolt the towball from the static drop plate and offer it up. You can imagine my confusion when I found that no combination of orientations allowed the holes to line up. Clearly this slider plate is not meant to attach to the static plate on the vehicle. The vehicle is a 1992 200Tdi 90, the rear crossmember has been changed in the past but I believe it's got the normal pattern of holes in. It wouldn't surprise me to find it hasn't though.... This is what I have on the car: And this is the slider plate (plus the towball I took off the plate in the above photo): I was under the impression that the slider plate bolts to the rear crossmember and the static drop plate, and then you put the towball on the small sliding bracket so it can be adjusted to suit the trailer? Clearly these parts are mismatched, but can anyone advise me what's missing or what I need to make it work. I need to lower the towball by about 6" - 12" ideally. You can clearly never just assume the bits that come with the car will fit it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 the slider frame bolts direct to the rear cross member, your missing the angle bracket which fits under the cross member & the 2 brace bars from bottom of frame to chassis. the photo below of a adjustable frame on a 90 should give you a good idea of how it's meant to bolt on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 Hmm, looks like I need a different type of fixed plate that bolts to the crossmember then. Wonder what this current one was meant to attach to I might just get a whole new towbar from Paddocks here, at least I know it's all there and compatible then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 Just found this in the parts book: It would appear that this is what I have attached to the vehicle, the standard Land Rover non-adjustable towbar. So I either need to buy a whole new adjustable towbar (Dixon Bate one as above) or a drop plate to bolt onto my current hitch. Might go with the latter since I'll only be hauling a small (<500kg) trailer around for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Here are a couple of pictures to show what it should look like from close up. Bear in mind that the angle bracket and the struts shown here are home made, but the factory made ones are very similar. You should not attempt to tow anything without the struts (which go back to the rear anti-roll bar mounts) fitted - at best you will bend the rear chassis member, at worst you will rip the arse off the vehicle and loose the trailer. Here's a view from the back: And here is one from underneath: Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Just found this in the parts book: It would appear that this is what I have attached to the vehicle, the standard Land Rover non-adjustable towbar. So I either need to buy a whole new adjustable towbar (Dixon Bate one as above) or a drop plate to bolt onto my current hitch. Might go with the latter since I'll only be hauling a small (<500kg) trailer around for now. the diagram is defo what you have currently fitted, easy way without spending more cash, is to make some brace bars & lower angle as shown by Nick above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 As the current one won't give you what you want I would recommend that you brought a removal 2" style hitch I have a drop plate for mine which I can use on the lowest of trailers but then take it off with one pin so does not cause an issue when going off road I also have a Nato hitch that I can slot and the mount puts it within 1cm of the exact x-member height, oh and a recovery eye, I may even get a back step made to make it easier to get into the back. Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmerboy_y2k Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Just found this in the parts book: It would appear that this is what I have attached to the vehicle, the standard Land Rover non-adjustable towbar. So I either need to buy a whole new adjustable towbar (Dixon Bate one as above) or a drop plate to bolt onto my current hitch. Might go with the latter since I'll only be hauling a small (<500kg) trailer around for now. thats the type i have on my 110, with the combination ball on the lower holes my mates 16' ifor flatbed sits level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 James, come pay a visit to my treasure trove. I'm pretty sure I have all the bits you need. Nick Williams' photo shows the bits you should have, although his parts don't look like they're all gen Dixon Bate/LR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 James, come pay a visit to my treasure trove. I'm pretty sure I have all the bits you need. Nick Williams' photo shows the bits you should have, although his parts don't look like they're all gen Dixon Bate/LR he did say in his reply nickwilliams -- the angle bracket and the struts shown here are home made, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 James, come pay a visit to my treasure trove. I'm pretty sure I have all the bits you need. Nick Williams' photo shows the bits you should have, although his parts don't look like they're all gen Dixon Bate/LR Thanks Mickey, that sounds great. Will be in touch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 he did say in his reply Sorry, it's late for me. Fell asleep in front of TV and LR4x4 Woke up and tried to do stuff that needed brain power James talk soon. You have my number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real muddy90 Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Oh poo, I literally cut up the bits you need the other day! I needed some thick angle to fab some new tree sliders. I think I still have the lower bracket & one brace, you're welcome to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 Right, thanks to all for the advice and help so far, I now have this thanks to Mickey and his treasure trove (Please note: The cable ties are to stop the stays swinging down if the bolts worked loose, not meant as a permanent solution. Top two M16 bolts not yet fitted ) My stays reach the correct sort of area already so I see no need to replace them, I just need to fabricate the piece which bolts to the lower holes in the ladder frame and that the stays fix on to. This is the Td5 piece: 10mm plate (like the rest of the Td5 stay-bar assembly) so nice and strong. Hopefully I will be able to gently bend this to the correct angle (bearing in mind of course that the stay angles are different on Td5s compared to my 200Tdi, as they're wider to clear the fuel tank) and then bolt it up to my current stays. If I cannot achieve this, I will attempt to fabricate something out of 5mm plate with the correct angles in to meet my stays. But it looks like I've achieved my aim of dropping the tow bar height, here's the new setup with the ball mounted: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 You appear to have a gap between the angle bracket and the lower edge of the rear chassis member. That's not right - it will put the force from the towbar on to the threaded inserts in the cross member, not into the cross member directly. Also, it means that you can't line up the upper pair of bolts which go horizontally into the rear cross member (look on my picture - there are four horizontal M16 bolts on the upper part of the bracket) - and again the forces will not be going in the right places without the bolts fitted and correctly tightened. (Sorry if I'm stating the obvious but...) Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 I haven't fitted the top two M16 bolts because I don't have them yet, need to go and get them. The gap is unavoidable, the threaded inserts which are welded into the crossmember do not sit flush with the lower surface, they are welded in as such that they stand proud by a few millimetres and hence the gap. I was under the impression this was standard, my 110 has lowered inserts on it's (original 1993) crossmember, and the Richards chassis on my Series III (bought last year) has them standing slightly proud too. Perhaps when they changed the rear end of the chassis design for Td5 (I notice your crossmember is Td5 style) they made them flush? The upper set of holes line up ok, they just need bolts in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 The nutserts sit proud of the chassis member surface on mine too (as you can see to the right of the bracket in the picture taken from underneath) but when I made the bracket I counterbored the holes to allow for the thickness the nutserts stick out from the chassis member so the bracket sits flat on the underside of the chassis member. I assumed that this was how the 'pucker' bracket was made as well. I don't recall there being a gap on my next door neighbour's dealer fitted bracket. It's certainly crappy engineering to leave a gap between the bracket and the chassis - not only does it reduce the benefit from fitting the plate in the first place, it also provides a perfect place for rust to start eating the rear chassis member. Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 I appreciate your concerns Nick, but I'm afraid it's the way Land Rover appear to do it! This is the latest setup, which is flush as you say: And the current (I believe Td5 and Puma) adjustable Dixon-Bate affair, again flush like yours: And an example of the pre-Td5 DB setup, with the gap like mine: Unless of course the bracket I have obtained here is not genuine, but I would have thought that if they had wanted to make it flush they would have welded the nut inserts on in a position to facilitate as such...ie. on the other side! As for rust, I'd have thought having a gap of 4mm or so would be better as you can wash it out easily with a hose, whereas a closed gap (as it were) would be more difficult to clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Nutserts aren't welded - they are simply crimped in, so unless the hole they are put in is countersunk then they have to be proud on both sides of the surface they are mounted in. How many people would bother to wash the gap out regularly? I certainly don't make a habit of it! I just made sure there was plenty of waxoyl in the joint when I assembled mine. Still, you are probably right and Landrover designed it that way. Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 There is slight confusion here. Nutserts are only fitted to Td5 and later chassis. All earlier models, inc James', were designed well before nutserts were common place on LR chassis. The gap you see is due to 3 thick (10mm-ish) chunks of steel welded to the lower face of the x-member, each with the necessary thread tapped in it. As said above, this is how LR designed it, and I'm sure this is still stronger than the cheese-like properties of the Td5 x-member Remember that when the angle plate is bolted to the angle plate the forces on those 3 bolts change due to the rigidity provided by the rest of the structure when all bolts and side stays are present. The drop plate certainly shouldn't be used without the through chassis M16 bolts fitted. James, hurry over to your box of bolts/Rose Autos before you tow anything with what you have pictured above. The Td5 drop plate and earlier type both have their holes at a vertical pitch of 2", so there shouldn't be any issues with holes lining up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 Thanks for clearing that up, the threaded holes on my (aftermarket replacement) rear crossmember are within small pieces of steel rod which are welded into the lower face. My 110's crossmember has the three 'pads' with the tapped holes in, as you describe Mickey, as does my 88"s new chassis. Rose's is exactly where I'm headed tomorrow morning to pick up two sets of M16s, one pair at 80mm to go through the crossmember and one pair at 40mm to attach the lower part of the slider to the bracket I'm planning to make Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 This has been an interesting thread for me as thanks to this I have noticed the previous owner has installed my adjustable hitch with 4 bolts into the rear cross member. This of course means the whole thing is a couple of inches higher than it should be but has also got me wondering if this configuration is weaker than the standard one as the long piece of angle iron that is normally bolted to the bottom of the cross member would surely spread the load over a greater area..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I think your thetup is perfectly thtwong as it is, Mr Wabbit As you say, it sits a wee bit higher, 2" higher in fact. Whether or not this matters depends on what height you need the hitch at. I do notice though, the side stays look very close to the fuel tank, assembled as it is. James, I meant to mention this morning - I hope you have a spreader plate to go inside the x-member. If not it's easy enough to make one, a bit of 1/4" plate will do. The gen DB part has the nuts welded to it, which makes assembly far easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Thanks for the comments Michael The height has been ok for me so far... The stays aren't quite as close to the fuel tank as they look, there was a 10mm thick ally bash plate between them and the tank when I bought it but I left that off when I replaced the fuel tank as it was only supported by two bolts in the rear cross member and resting on those stays :S Maybe one day I'll find a way to mount the bash plate properly.... I think I'll also check to see if there is a spreader plate behind the cross member as no doubt they have not bothered with one, I might even put it on straight!.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Ok I think I've finally got this sorted. Picked up some more bolts and a 12N lighting socket this morning and set to work making the missing part in my puzzle. I ended up with this: It's northing more than a piece of flat ~5mm steel with a bend at each end. I had to adjust the stay mounts at the chassis end (re-drill the holes) to allow them to reach the plate, this is due to the fact that these stays are from the fixed bracket style of mount, so are about an inch shorter. The bolts holding the fabricated bracket to the ladder are M12s. M16s would have been nice, but I don't have a 16mm drill bit (let alone a drill that it would fit!) and considering that the stays are fixed at each end with a single M10...I doubt a pair of M12s is going to fail on me. Even got the towing electrics fitted and wired up before it started to rain. Have wired it as per the standard 12N layout...but I won't know if it works until I plug it in to something I guess! Got there in the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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