najw Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 perfect idea si & there should not be any reason as to why people cant enter other events, than just the ones their club holds. As far as MSA clubs are concerned that would be down to each club to issue an invite to members of other clubs as part of their Event Supplementary Regulations. You can't have an open invite at the level we currently run events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 The MSA's definitions are not classes, they are vehicle standards which organisers may adopt in their Technical Regulations. Road Legal Challenge Vehicle or Challenge Special. Thats what i ment, "sorry" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt BADLRC Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 As far as MSA clubs are concerned that would be down to each club to issue an invite to members of other clubs as part of their Event Supplementary Regulations. You can't have an open invite at the level we currently run events. Neil you can run a national B championship with the same licence that all the guys have for challenge, that way it dosnt have to be closed club and the invited club list can be part of the championship, the costs are a bit more than closed club but not a lot, and you need a steward panel of about 6 - 8 impartial people. We looked at it for this year but couldnt get a steward panel togther in time so went for a closed club challenge championship again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real muddy90 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I I think it would also be worth having a couple of wild-card entries voted for on line. Perhaps someone new to the sport who has not had time to enter enough events, or someone who has just built an interesting truck and has potential? Si No no no no no! You can't do that, it won't be fair on everyone else putting the effort in to turn up to events to then say, 'oh, lets let mr big do the final, he's a good advert'! You shouldn't be able to 'buy' in to the championship. I thought your first post was a cracking idea Si, but a few odd ideas are popping up now! If you had an Msa run final, I think half the qualifying trucks wouldn't be able to enter under their regs, thereby loosing half the feild. Money will always raise it's ugly head but you can't start inventing rules to try to limit this. Personally, I have absolutely no problem in competing against cheque book motors. Is there any value in giving say, the top 5 events in the year, Decider, muddy's, etc more weight on championship points? You could ask clubs to charge an extra £5 per team per event that wanted to be entered into the league. This could go towards running the final. Crack on & get it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Fair point! I think that if the same MSA rules that Challenger operate I.e. For non speed events - it would be fairly inclusive. It only seems to be events with speed sections that have upped the bar with fireproof underpants and the like Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr whippy Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 the msa non msa debate may well determine how much of a success this great idea turs out to be. is there a way of finding out how many potential competitors to this event have a truck that complys to the current msa regs for the awdc challenger type event (if we can base it around those?) and trucks that don't. theres no point putting on an event with for example msa regs if only 25% of competitors trucks comply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I guess the answer to that lies in which events may form part of the league MSA AWDC BADLRC LRS Series Whitbread Muddy Truckers SWCC Non-MSA Mud Monsters CSW 4x4 Adventures Mission 4x4 De-Cider Feel free to add any I may have missed off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr whippy Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 excellent so on that basis surely there must be enough entrants for a league from msa run clubs on their own and if non msa clubs want to join in thats fine but they must understand vehicles will have to conform to msa to take part in the grand final???? it gets my vote! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 If I were to plan an event like this, I wouldn't go down the MSA route. Doing so limits you to MSA-compliant trucks...whereas going down the other route allows both MSA-compliant trucks and all the others as well. So long as they're safe. Unless there is a compelling reason to go MSA that I'm not aware of, having not organised events myself. I'd hazard a guess that insurance is one thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr whippy Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 If I were to plan an event like this, I wouldn't go down the MSA route. Doing so limits you to MSA-compliant trucks...whereas going down the other route allows both MSA-compliant trucks and all the others as well. So long as they're safe. Unless there is a compelling reason to go MSA that I'm not aware of, having not organised events myself. I'd hazard a guess that insurance is one thing? that was my point originally does anyone know how many msa compliant trucks are competing in non msa events? id say a good portion are msa compliant without really knowing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Fall Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Simon, I think this sounds like a fantastic idea! Means that everyone can get a feel for how well they are doing in comparison to their equivalents in different clubs, and the "Grand Final" idea would definitely make for fantastic viewing and fun. I like what you're thinking with the idea of "However many people you beat in your class, thats how many points you get". That seems logical and simple enough for everyone to grasp. I think defining classes is going to be the only difficult bit, but the Challenger rules are a good starting point; Standard: Based on road vehicle, no traction aids, one winch Modified: Based on road vehicle, traction aids, portals, as many winches as you want. Then add in: SuperMod: One off specials, spaceframes etc. Basically, anything goes as long as its MSA safe With regards to the MSA Spec Truck/Non-MSA Spec Truck debate, I'd hazard a guess that a good 80% of trucks conform to the MSA regs regarding challenge vehicles. I mean, the main thing in the regs is really roll cage design and cutouts. If you haven't got cutouts thats a bit silly, and unless you built the cage yourself then there's gotta be a bloody good chance it conforms to MSA regs? Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Begining to sound a bit like the interclub...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 In a good way or a bad way Chris? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe under the Challenger MSA rules, you don't need a cage at all, so long as you have a solid roof. You do not need Helmets and the scrutineering is very similar to any other event. You need a power cutoff which kills the engine and another one which kills the winch power (assuming the first one does not), fire extinguisher and some basic kit. I don't think there should be a requirement for the events in the league to be under MSA rules - which in itself makes it more inclusive as any club or event can be involved. The final under basic MSA rules and insurance would be much easier to organise. I doubt it would exclude many people. Chris - in many ways it's like the inter club but on a bigger scale and with much more publicity in the build up to the final. I think the league during the year could have quite a buzz associated with it and give the final a better chance of attracting both the 4x4 and mainstream press. With the right location and an event laid out in a press and spectator friendly way - viewing platforms for special stages, rock crawling, hill climb/winching - basically close quarters, easy to see stuff as well as more traditional wide range punches - and organise them so that there is a continual stream of teams through each of them. I think we could raise the profile of the whole sport into something much more akin to rallying. I suppose more like the European & American off road events. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 If the selection process is fair and sound then the idea is go'er for me, the problem I can foresee is massive difference in talent and capability of both driver and vehicle. You could be putting some very inexperienced crews upagainst some of the best in the country depending on what the level was that got them there. You wouldn't put Port Vale straight in against the Brazilian National team just because they both won their leagues, it could be a bit tricky, and at level do you set the event out at. Teams that perhaps not as experienced or technically capable could be pressured into making poor or risky decisions through pride or perhaps expectation. To be fair Colin (Scorpion) did a lot to promote the sport (I know you all have your views as to why, and please keep them for now) but the Eurotrial was a prime example with a band on on, hospitality, vendors on site, barbeque, beer tent and so on, but he was heading, like it or not in the right direction. To compete and go home with a prize was also a boost, it might of been naff but so what, I won worklights, strops, waffles, pair of shocks etc, and really felt good for them, bull****e you might think but it worked for me. So yes if it's suits and it is done in the right way and is not going to spoil other people series's then why not, the sport needs something to attract some interest from the masses. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robhybrid Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 If the selection process is fair and sound then the idea is go'er for me, the problem I can foresee is massive difference in talent and capability of both driver and vehicle. You could be putting some very inexperienced crews upagainst some of the best in the country depending on what the level was that got them there. You wouldn't put Port Vale straight in against the Brazilian National team just because they both won their leagues, it could be a bit tricky, and at level do you set the event out at. Teams that perhaps not as experienced or technically capable could be pressured into making poor or risky decisions through pride or perhaps expectation. To be fair Colin (Scorpion) did a lot to promote the sport (I know you all have your views as to why, and please keep them for now) but the Eurotrial was a prime example with a band on on, hospitality, vendors on site, barbeque, beer tent and so on, but he was heading, like it or not in the right direction. To compete and go home with a prize was also a boost, it might of been naff but so what, I won worklights, strops, waffles, pair of shocks etc, and really felt good for them, bull****e you might think but it worked for me. So yes if it's suits and it is done in the right way and is not going to spoil other people series's then why not, the sport needs something to attract some interest from the masses. Chris you seem to be saying what I am thinking I know there are some who like the buzz of speed who have moved on to hill rally etc but having to have a cage/ upgrate cage spec/get msa licence/ wear the latest spec helmet to name but a few is not what I had intended. Simon has some really suggestion, I like the idea of the final being similar to the eurochalenge of a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 Actually, I think Colin did a brilliant job with events! I wish I had the same imagination and drive to do half as good a job. I feel that the points based on the number of teams you've beaten in say your best 5 competitions means that everyone in the final will have beaten a similar number of people. If an event is big enough to give you a good points score in your class - there are more likely to be better teams there. If you only enter small local events - you could never accumulate enough points to make the final. At the moment anybody can enter any event so you may be up against people much better than you and subject to the same pressures. If you have to go through a qualification process to get to the final - you are more likely to be in the same league as the other enterents? Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Sorry guys I wrote Eurotrail and not EUROCHALLENGE, doh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgolee Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 hi all been watching this post quite careful as crawley 4x4 are thinking of starting a challenge series next year, and have been doing some digging into MSA/non MSA and ways of classifying veichles and it seems to me the most all incompossing set of regulations and classiment's and competitor friendly events i can find are the 'MUD MONSTERS' ones and if we do launch a challenge series it will be very closely based around there. Si i think your idea for the national leauge is a very good one, just hope if you can get it going it remains very friendly and non clicky affair, as i'm sure you will do your best to keep it. cheers Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 I had a meeting with Neil Whitford to discuss this concept last week. Although I had figured Neil and the AWDC were the most obvious choice to organise the final, Neil has his own plans for a big event next year - and wasn't keen, at least on running it. I'll pitch the idea to the Magazine that was interested - but in their absence, unfortunately, the idea is dead! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I guess the answer to that lies in which events may form part of the league MSA AWDC BADLRC LRS Series Whitbread Muddy Truckers SWCC Non-MSA Mud Monsters CSW 4x4 Adventures Mission 4x4 De-Cider Feel free to add any I may have missed off I would be also looking at the above events results to try and get a picture of the numbers of teams involved. I know some teams will appear in more than one series but not many i suspect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treebloke Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I guess organising the final would be straight forward enough, the bulk of work would be collecting the information throughout the year, store all the various results and maintain the league table. A magazine would be ideal for this bit with perhaps Neil to just sort out the final, like Simon implied he is the obvious choice, no disrepect to all the other organisers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr whippy Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I had a meeting with Neil Whitford to discuss this concept last week. Although I had figured Neil and the AWDC were the most obvious choice to organise the final, Neil has his own plans for a big event next year - and wasn't keen, at least on running it. I'll pitch the idea to the Magazine that was interested - but in their absence, unfortunately, the idea is dead! Si its a shame if it is dead si i really thought you were on to something, dont you fancy a go at it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyv8 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 this seemed liked a really good idea and we would be really up for it, its just a shame this has fizzled out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgolee Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 yeah i would be really up for, and si if your not up for it i'm sure one of the other guys that organise events would be up for it, because it would be a real shame to see this just fizzle out as it's such a great idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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