PaulN Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I have read how the 300 tdi runs better and a lot smoother at 10 degrees than the basic 4 or 5 degrees btdc. Once the cam plate has been marked on the front of the FIP and then loosened - can anyone enlighten me as to what a 1mm clockwise, rotational movement (advance) of the drive shaft relates to in terms of degrees please? (Please don't say the circumference of the marked plate divided by 360 multiplied by the amount of movement because I don't know the circumference!!) I have achieved a dramatic improvement after a half mm move then driven to check and then a further improvement after another 1mm movement. I am trying to ascertain how close I am getting to the elusive 10 degrees! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 How about getting a small clear protractor (school type issue) that shows 180 degrees, fix or mark it agaist your FIP drive cog , (in your instance in 10 degree incliments from BDC to TDC) as measured on the crank and then you should be able to set the FIP timing to achieve the required 10 degrees. I'd be interested in knowing if the result was worth it ...... please. Alternative 2. Remove No.1 injector. and fit a dial guage that can measure the piston from BDC to TDC. Note the total distance and divide it by 180. go back to TDC and turn the engine slowly backwards by the distance that you have calculated that equates to 10 degrees BTDC. Mark the crankshaft. Turn the engine through 2 complete turns back to your mark, check the distance from the mark to TDC, if it hasnt changed, happy days you have a mark for 10 degrees BTDC. If it has, go through the procedure again. This has the makings of the hassles I experienced in "dialing in" my camshaft, I found it was around 1.25 degrees out, such are the tollerances of modern mass production. Once I'd got it perfect I drilled and doweled the camshaft cog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Nice one Boydie, A couple of useful suggestions. However, not being too clever, I'm not sure how the 2:1 revs of the FIP to Crank would work out along with a hand held protractor. I like your suggestion of assessing the total piston travel much better but,whilst 1 revolution of FIP serves all cylinders, I'm not too sure what the position of, say No1, would be at 1 complete revolution. Jury still out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 My brain hurts..... 1. Does anyone know how much a 1mm move of the Pump spindle as measure on the plate edge would be in terms of degrees of the cranks rotation? 2. Put another way - what's the rotational relationship between the FIP drive shaft and crank? Then I can do the maths Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 seems the fault has been cured ----->>>>> http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=68005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 seems the fault has been cured ----->>>>> http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=68005 Nice spot Ralph and yes thankfully the smoking has been cured but the issue now is by how much have I moved the timing? Unless you've got a fancy piezo pulse counter thingy that you can set up on number 1 injection pipe and point a timing gun at a pre-marked crank pulley it's a bit like shooting in the dark. I have moved the spindle by a guesstimate of 1.5mm - how much advance is that??? Yes it fixed the smoking problem but what have I done? I might be adding another problem of running too advanced! The ultimate for me is to find 10 degrees advance (which is where the 300 tdi is reputedly supposed to run best at) - see what it runs like and then settle somewhere in between. I know the starting point of 4-5 degrees when a new belt is fitted properly but for all I know (without a little help) is that half a millimeter might be already have hit 10 degrees!!!! :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davek0974 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 The crank runs at twice the speed of the fip, so a 1 degree advance at the fip = 2 degrees of advance at the crank. Without measuring pulleys I cant say what the adjustment made is in degrees, but as a rough guess, each mm of crank pulley movement is approx 0.9 degrees if my memory serves correct that the pulley is around 5" diameter If you over do the tweaks, it will start knocking badly or lose all power so if it's running well then you should be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLineMike Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Nice spot Ralph and yes thankfully the smoking has been cured but the issue now is by how much have I moved the timing? Unless you've got a fancy piezo pulse counter thingy that you can set up on number 1 injection pipe and point a timing gun at a pre-marked crank pulley it's a bit like shooting in the dark. I have moved the spindle by a guesstimate of 1.5mm - how much advance is that??? Yes it fixed the smoking problem but what have I done? I might be adding another problem of running too advanced! The ultimate for me is to find 10 degrees advance (which is where the 300 tdi is reputedly supposed to run best at) - see what it runs like and then settle somewhere in between. I know the starting point of 4-5 degrees when a new belt is fitted properly but for all I know (without a little help) is that half a millimeter might be already have hit 10 degrees!!!! :o my only suggestion is leave it alone & step away from the tools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 The crank runs at twice the speed of the fip, so a 1 degree advance at the fip = 2 degrees of advance at the crank. Without measuring pulleys I cant say what the adjustment made is in degrees, but as a rough guess, each mm of crank pulley movement is approx 0.9 degrees if my memory serves correct that the pulley is around 5" diameter If you over do the tweaks, it will start knocking badly or lose all power so if it's running well then you should be ok. Thanks for brainstorming with me Dave. As I said before rather than to do nothing other than arbitrarily move the timing (cured smoke yes - but at what cost?) with a little more work one can definitively dial in a known value for accurate timing, stay inside the safe zone and have an efficient engine. So....... I'm aware I have to confirm the point on the FIP Pully that I'm marking and to ascertain the true circumference at that point but thanks for confirming the 2:1 speed differential. Taking 5" as a reasonable and theoretical starting point for now: 5" x 25.4 = 127mm 127mm x Pi = 398.8mm = Circumference 398.8mm / 360 = 1.1 degrees 2:1 = 2.2 degrees move of crank for each mm of movement of FIP (given this 5" diameter assumption) Great, unless I've missed something, now all I have to do is to insert an accurate figure in place of 5" and then test it in practice. Thanks for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisbowler Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Paul FIP wheel is 143mm tooth to tooth in dia. CB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Paul FIP wheel is 143mm tooth to tooth in dia. CB Sorry it's been so long but I've not been able to get to do anything with the Disco and hopefully now I can close this thread down. Thanks for the info Chris but it's the point at which you mark and measure rather, which I only realised when I started my maths! I have established that for every 1mm it's .59 degrees on the FIP which is 1.18 degrees on the crank. My primary objective was to stop smoke - done that with half a mm and a further 1mm as said above. Since found that was a bit too much due to sound of engine didn't sound right too knocky. 2nd objective was to see if she would indeed run smoother at the (as previously mentioned many time on this Forum) suggested 10 degrees adv. which is "better for the 300 tdi". From my initial mark I have progressively moved to advance half a mm at a time and then checked to see how she ran. Now the thing is that I'm still p*ssing into the wind with out 1 more important piece of info and that is - where am I starting from? Assuming pinned up and properly fitted timing belt with marks on tdc what position is the FIP at - at that point? - 4, 5 10 degrees btdc? Don't know? I don't nor anyone I've asked! Thought I did know but turns out that it may well be a bit retarded to aid starting and the use of alternative fuel grades. Clearly, and to put it crudely, there is a delay before the squirt / spray manifests itself from the injector and then there is the flame dwell so I am probably right in saying you could be many many degrees advanced at the FIPs actual point of 'pump'. In which case I will never tell where the timing is at the FIP! All I can say is with a half mm move to advance it stopped the smoke and any further didn't affect the performance but made her rather knocky. Moving back to mark plus a hair!! - all okay and as long as I can get back to my start point I am happy to persue.... I will have to get or to borrow one of those piezo thingys to clip onto No1 injector and a timing light to sense the point of spray as per comments elsewhere - just need to try out this 10 degrees! Hope these updates might help someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted September 4, 2011 Author Share Posted September 4, 2011 No advice? Okay forget all the above cr@p..... Clean sheet..... How does one set the injector pump timing to a specific value of btdc please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davek0974 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Dont know if anybody does, normally just stuff the pins in flywheel and pump, slap the belt on and away they go, sometimes a little bit of advance helps but without some data, a clamp on strobe, calibrated crank pulley and a vernier pump pulley surely your just pissing in the wind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLineMike Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Dont know if anybody does, normally just stuff the pins in flywheel and pump, slap the belt on and away they go, sometimes a little bit of advance helps but without some data, a clamp on strobe, calibrated crank pulley and a vernier pump pulley surely your just pissing in the wind? "like" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 As a comparison I used to run a Vauxhall with the 17dr engine, it was ex lease car. I found out that the fuel pump timing was retarded when I replaced the belt, it was suggested to me that leasing comanies do this on purpose to "protect" the engine, though how much more they get thrashed because of it I can only guess. I bought the timing pin and reset the timing, it wasn't really loads faster but if I overdid it the car was really noisey and gutless, it was a Recardo head. Correct timing should give peak pressure at 10 degrees ATDC but compared to a petrol engine I think Deisel burns slower, so how important is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 Correct timing should give peak pressure at 10 degrees ATDC but compared to a petrol engine I think Deisel burns slower, so how important is it? It would simply be comforting to know that she was set to a known value - always remove variables to go forward. It's not important for performance - it's simply that engine doesn't sound right and there no way I know where the bloomin' pump timing is now - before tweaking! I know where it was as I've marked the position so I can always go back. Originally there was a smoke issue resolved by a 1/2 mm move to advance but she doesn't sound right, very clackety, never used too. For all I know this could be 10.5 degrees now! May be it was too far advanced and creating smoke - could try a 1/2 mm the other way - but it's all just guesswork! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davek0974 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Have you tried factory standard? I.e. Both pins in, camshaft centred and pump set?? Just asking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Sorry for delay - not been about. Yes I can fall back to that. That is a sound and sane suggestion. I don't have them myself but can get it done. Question is what would that set the timing to? My guess is that, even though my pump pressures have been tested as okay, there may be some mechanical wear which will re-manifest itself in the original problem of smoke when set back, as you say, to 'Factory Standard'. If not - all well and good. If it does then "a small tweak to advance is what will be needed"!!! Vagaries of "a small tweak" and "an unknown starting point" I simply would prefer to be quantified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davek0974 Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The starting point is not totally unknown, it's "factory standard", what that is is generally irrelevant, I can see where you are coming from but I feel you are trying to performance tune a tractor:) What mostly happens is that it is tried at standard, and for this you really must have the two pins, then if a little tweak is felt needed a slightly smaller pin is inserted into the pump thereby giving some slack, the pump is then locked up while holding the shaft clockwise against the slack pin. This will give a repeatable amount of advance. If you have smoke, check the belt timing carefuly regarding the camshaft, it has been known they will run a tooth out but give smoke and poor performance, all needs to be perfect on a tdi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share Posted September 17, 2011 Acknowledged! and thanks for the advice Dave - appreciated. I'll do just that and as you describe with a known fractionally smaller pin the amount would be repeatable! Duh! As far as smoke is concerned the small approx. 0.5mm move to advance cured that and I shall bear this fact in mind when, and if I, need to choose and undersized pin!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper109 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I am very late chiming in on this but I am assuming your 0.5 mm and 1 mm movements are at the bolt slots in the pump pulley. If that is the case, then you need to know the PCD (pitch circle diameter) of the screws. This might be quite easy to measure as you have the whole circle before you. I dont have my cover off but I would have thought it was about 70 mm diameter. Easy to substitute the correct diameter. In this case, the PCD circumference would be 70 x 3.142. Divide that circumference by 360 and you know how many mm or decimal parts therof constitute 1 degree. You can then do the arithmetic that you want. Another way to deal with this is to borrow a timing tool and dial indicator for a VW or Audi diesel. This fits in the hole in the centre of the inj pump head, between all the injector hard lines after taking out the 12 mm screw. Find VW diesel timing instructions for non electronic diesels which are easy to find and follow. Once the tool is installed, the engine is turned backwards a little from TDC until the pointer stops descending. This is the base point and the dial indicator can be turned so that zero is at this point. The engine is then turned forwards until TDC is reached (3/16" pin drops into slot on flywheel accessed at the bottom of the bell housing). The distance moved on the dial indicator constitutes the timing advance point. On VW engines it can be up to about .96 mm. Much over 1 mm and the engines can be very rattly. If you measure what yours is now, its easy to put it back there using this method. Also you can put the timing back to the pinned position and measure the dial indicator distance there. I cant be sure but I feel like I read 0.7 mm somewhere, which is not very far advanced at all. Hope this helps, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 Okay it’s been a while but here’s an update: Bought some pins and set timing to ‘Factory Standard’ (Whatever that is!) Not surprisingly the smoke was back! but this was to be expected as the smoking was ‘cured’ by a small advance. At least I now have a home point. What was a surprise was that this small amount of retard did not stop the hard clackety knocking noisy engine. Sounds like a single cylinder knock so I suppose it could be something else. But keeping on the timing topic.... Anyway, tried a .5mm smaller drill bit to set the timing fwd by a ‘known’ amount of advance but it was difficult to be consistent. The setting became variable as you can’t stop the undersized pin from cranking between the two apertures. So once again I’m setting a small but unknown amount. Engine is still hard and noisy. Reset back to ‘pins standard’. Forum quote different thread: ”How do you intend to check the timing? Just with the pins in the injector and the flywheel? That's not very accurate. “ Sooo - taking heed of this and comments above - off to the Pump Specialists where we put in a ‘lift’ (Dell?) meter and discovered that the timing as set by me on the pins was spot on to his charts “for your pump” he said “requires 1.4 lift at TDC” he said “+ or - .02”! So we left it there - drove home - till knocky and smokey next morning! Referred to a number of threads on this Forum (spanning several years) and also the ol’ Haynes and they all concur that lift should actually be 1.54 NOT 1.4!!!!! :o 1.4 is for “Injection Pump with electronic EGR”!! Ggrrrr! - wish I could get hold of one of those 'Snap On' or 'Sykes' piezo thingies that Mr Attryll is always on about to set 10 degrees and be done with it!! Anyway - another Forum Quote just to confirm: “ 1. On EGR valve equipped cars, pump lift must be exactly 1.40mm at TDC (No.1 cyl!) 2. On EGR-blanked off cars pump lift must be 1.54mm at TDC (No1 cyl!) “ As my truck has long since had an EGR bypass I should be on 1.54 then!!? Looks like another trip to the Pump Man........... Could someone please help by advising that I am correct in assuming that 1.54 lift will be more advanced than 1.4 ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davek0974 Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Oh man, change the font please, I can't read a word of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper109 Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Just for your interest. http://d24t.com/showthread.php?747-Injection-pump-setting-in-video. This is for a different engine (older VW engines) but uses the same injector pump. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 Oh man, change the font please, I can't read a word of that Happy to oblige : Okay it’s been a while but here’s an update: Bought some pins and set timing to ‘Factory Standard’ (Whatever that is!) Not surprisingly the smoke was back! but this was to be expected as the smoking was ‘cured’ by a small advance. At least I now have a home point. What was a surprise was that this small amount of retard did not stop the hard clackety knocking noisy engine. Sounds like a single cylinder knock so I suppose it could be something else. But keeping on the timing topic.... Anyway, tried a .5mm smaller drill bit to set the timing fwd by a ‘known’ amount of advance but it was difficult to be consistent. The setting became variable as you can’t stop the undersized pin from cranking between the two apertures. So once again I’m setting a small but unknown amount. Engine is still hard and noisy. Reset back to ‘pins standard’. Forum quote different thread: ”How do you intend to check the timing? Just with the pins in the injector and the flywheel? That's not very accurate. “ Sooo - taking heed of this and comments above - off to the Pump Specialists where we put in a ‘lift’ (Dell?) meter and discovered that the timing as set by me on the pins was spot on to his charts “for your pump” he said “requires 1.4 lift at TDC” he said “+ or - .02”! So we left it there - drove home - till knocky and smokey next morning! Referred to a number of threads on this Forum (spanning several years) and also the ol’ Haynes and they all concur that lift should actually be 1.54 NOT 1.4!!!!! :o 1.4 is for “Injection Pump with electronic EGR”!! Ggrrrr! - wish I could get hold of one of those 'Snap On' or 'Sykes' piezo thingies that Mr Attryll is always on about to set 10 degrees and be done with it!! Anyway - another Forum Quote just to confirm: “ 1. On EGR valve equipped cars, pump lift must be exactly 1.40mm at TDC (No.1 cyl!) 2. On EGR-blanked off cars pump lift must be 1.54mm at TDC (No1 cyl!) “ As my truck has long since had an EGR bypass I should be on 1.54 then!!? Looks like another trip to the Pump Man........... Could someone please help by advising that I am correct in assuming that 1.54 lift will be more advanced than 1.4 ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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