4x4prejudice

[tombraider110]

MY MATE JUST SENT ME THIS. WHAT ABOUT £1800 ROAD TAX TIME FOR A LAND ROVER CONVOY TO LONDON

The arguments

First of all, you may have seen many arguments against driving 4x4's on our streets. The sad truth is that many of these "facts" have been drawn from American websites, with American figures.

Whilst some of these figures and opinions may be valid in the UK, not all of them are. This site is based on UK information, and on UK opinions. We do not call our people carriers "Minivans", nor do we call our vehicles "SUV's" or "Sedans"

There are many arguments and accusations levelled at 4x4 owners. Some have a degree of truth, but sadly, many more are based on selective information, tabloid hype and over-emotive, baseless rhetoric.

Some of the more general discussion points are detailed below, with specific sections of the site dedicated to environmental issues and financial matters.

The first thing to discuss is a question which the anti-4x4 campaign have yet to adequately answer :

What is a 4x4 ?

There are many vehicles on the road today, in many shapes and sizes. Many "cars" are equipped with four wheel drive, and many "Off Roaders" are 2 wheel drive only whilst on the tarmac.

Without very careful definition, a blanket law to "Ban 4x4s" would end up affecting far more people than first considered.

Now just recently, the 'anti' campaign has sought to clarify their targets, saying "The 'big 4x4s' we talk about are those tall, chunky cars designed for heavy-duty off-road work and their many imitators." (from the Alliance against Urban 4x4s). We say that this is still a vague and directionless statement. We feel that these sort of generalisations are dangerous and counter-productive.

The following are some genuine arguments made against 4x4 vehicles and in the campaign to get them banned. (Taken from the Alliance against Urban 4x4s Website)

"We only want to ban 4x4s from the City"

First off, what is a 4x4 ? The Audi Allroad is to all intents and purposes an estate car, but it has 4 wheel drive... should we ban them ?

If we could sucessfully define a 4x4, then what ? Do we have exclusion zones ? That's what some people want. How does that work for people who only own a 4wd vehicle, and are "allowed" to do so by the campaigners ?

If I live in the countryside and own a "legitimate" 4wd, how do I get into the town ? Maybe I should run 2 cars.. and save the environment !

An "urban" ban on 4x4s WILL have an effect on their use throughout the country. As with so many things, campaigners seem to believe that what happens in London somehow doesn't affect the rest of the people in the UK, or that they deserve some special treatment.

"4x4s are terrible for the environment"

Pretty much all cars are I'm afraid. See our environment page for a few facts about the "evil" 4x4

"Most larger cars can tow like a 4x4"

This is simply not true. The towing capacity of the average 4x4 is far in excess of a large saloon car. This means that with a big load, they are MORE stable and have MORE braking capacity.. not less.

"If you have to move a heavy load, use a removal company"

So they can bring along a 9 litre engined lorry to do the job for you......

"If you are a farmer or your job is to tow equipment, we have no argument with you"

That's very generous... however, the continued demonisation of 4x4 owners will have an effect on them, and the results of an anti-4x4 campaign have the potential to hurt them finiancially. Everything we do has it's consequences.

"you are still more likely to run down your neighbours kids"

If you are the sort of person who is likely to run down your neighbours children, then the car won't change that. Improve your driving, talk to your neighbours and educate your children to the hazards and dangers of the road.

"You don't have a right to carry weapons, incite hatred or other anti-social behaviour so why would you have right to mow people down in the street in your 4x4?"

I think this most clearly illustrates the level of argument that the anti-4x4 campaign needs to resort to in order to gain some support. It is personally offensive to 4x4 owners and hopefully to any sane-minded motorist. If it is a credible argument that a 4x4 owner feels they have the "right" to "mow people down", purely through their choice of vehicle, then the world truly has gone mad.

And a few more things that you may not know :

4x4 owners clubs all over the country provide valuable support to the emergency services, local authorities and communities. In bad weather, these groups of volunteers help to reach accident victims, provide assistance to meals on wheels services, and assist in search and rescue operations. Without 4x4s, these people would just be sitting at home, watching the news like everybody else.

Many 4x4 owners are enthusiasts, they are members of vehicle clubs and as such tend to keep their vehicles for longer, maintain them and run them for more than the all too common 3 year turnover. This is far better for the environment than changing every few years. The amount of energy required to produce a new car is massive.

A lot of 4x4 owners are not rich show offs... we would say that most are not in fact. Many 4x4 owners have only one vehicle, and choose the 4x4 as the most adaptable and practical.

4x4 owners are not faceless, evil people, intent on destroying the world and maiming their fellow road users. They are normal people who have exercised their right to choose.

A ban on "urban" 4x4s WILL affect ALL owners of 4x4s, even those that are considered "acceptable" to the anti-campaign.

www.4x4prejudice.org

[Steve Hiatt]

And a friend of mine reminded me that appeasement didn’t work with Hitler and it will not work with the antis.

So my considered and intellectually balanced reply to all the antis points of view is....

SOD OFF

[yellow]

One city in Holland tried doing this and were repelled by a savvy lawyer (and 4x4 owner) who stated that this would be infringing the freedom of expression, or the freedom of choice, or discrimination against a specific group of the population (Multiple choice here!!!)

The arguments brought forward usually coming from the Greens that 4x4's pollute more are based on absolute figures, not in relation with other vehicle types (Motor bikes or 'these diesel running two seater vehicles that one can drive without a B-license) or that 4x4s take up more space (A Chrysler Voyager has a larger 'footprint' than a 110, a VW Passat has a larger footprint than a 90, etc...

Any case in court brought against this will be won.

Nevertheless, good luck for the fight for a good cause...

[Happyoldgit]

[Matt Neale]

Totally agree with the sentiment.

Problem is, posting it on here, you are preaching to the converted...

Now, wouldn't it be nice to get a tame journo "on side" and publish this to a wider audience????

(Richard Hammond springs to mind! )

Matt

[Mo Murphy]

I must confess that I no longer believe that reasoned argument and discussion will work when dealing with antis. It was tried and didn't work. As Steve has already said, appeasement clearly doesn't work !

If our pasttime is threatened again then the time has come for more direct action (whatever that is)

Mo

[BogMonster]

I must confess that I no longer believe that reasoned argument and discussion will work when dealing with antis. It was tried and didn't work. As Steve has already said, appeasement clearly doesn't work !

If our pasttime is threatened again then the time has come for more direct action (whatever that is)

Something that involved lots of tanks and carpet bombing with incendiaries worked OK last time. That would wake the buggers up

The headlines should be quite fun too, if somebody nicked the BoB Memorial Flight's Lancaster and bombed the Greenpeace HQ with it

Not for the first time I consider myself fortunate for living somewhere with a more sensible view. Even the conservation folks in this part of the world all drive 4x4s, in fact I think the only vehicles the group owns are Land Rovers

[Hillbilly Raider]

Totally agree with the sentiment.

Problem is, posting it on here, you are preaching to the converted...

Now, wouldn't it be nice to get a tame journo "on side" and publish this to a wider audience????

(Richard Hammond springs to mind! )

Matt

how about Mark Evans?

me@jungletelevision.com

[Mo Murphy]

Something that involved lots of tanks and carpet bombing with incendiaries worked OK last time. That would wake the buggers up

The headlines should be quite fun too, if somebody nicked the BoB Memorial Flight's Lancaster and bombed the Greenpeace HQ with it

Not for the first time I consider myself fortunate for living somewhere with a more sensible view. Even the conservation folks in this part of the world all drive 4x4s, in fact I think the only vehicles the group owns are Land Rovers

Well, there's a good reason to get that Vulcan in private hands flying again You could come and watch it bombing Stephen, should bring back happy memories

Mo

[reads90]

The headlines should be quite fun too, if somebody nicked the BoB Memorial Flight's Lancaster and bombed the Greenpeace HQ with it

hey get the french involved after all they have experiance at this sort of thing

[B reg 90]

I have seen this before as a supporter of fox hunting. What I have learnt seeing legislation against what I do in both the Scottish Parliment and in the house of commons is that the only people that count are those that vote on the legislation. In other words MP's and lords. Everyone else's opinion is worth absolutly nothing when it comes to a vote on a proposed law. The other facts worth considering in my opinion are:

- Debates in parliment would put a primary school child to shame. All sides turn up with preformed views and the discussion in the chamber is all about point scoring with the opposing party - facts and rational debate do not occur (I have personally sat though hours of this guff - it makes you sad that our country is run by such imature idiots)

- Most MP's only turn up for the vote.

- The vast majority of MP's vote on gut instinct and most definately do not find out the facts and form a valid logical opinion.

Prior to wittnesing the above I had niavely assumed that if things didn't go the way I liked at the very least there would have been a rational discussion and that those voting to change how I personally chose to spend my time would have at least take the time to understand the issues. Well I was very sadly disapointed and now have nothing but contempt for the majority of politicians.

Replying on the greenpeace web site or on here is pointless as both groups allready have entrenched views. The general public will sound off one way or the other if asked, but realy can't be arsed. In other words if you want to secure YOUR personal ability to use your 4x4 you need to directly influence MP's and lords. Be asurred that the other side know this and will be campaining in parliment peddling their bulls**t every week.

So if you want to make a differnence you need to write to your MP and every other MP where you can claim to off road in their consituency. It is also worth while going to see your MP at his/her office. It is suprisingly interesting how little they know about specialist issues such as hunting and 4x4's and if you ask good questions they get all flustered. I had one who got so confused he just got up and walked out of the room and refused to come back.......

The other point worth considering is that goverments (i.e. Tony) want an easy life. So if they think that a certain law is going to cause loads of hassle thay will find something else to do. The hunting groups did not work this out until to late, by then it was less hassle for Tony to keep his back benchers happy than to tiddle off a few 'country folk' that allegedy mostly vote conservative. What I have learn't from this is that if rational debate with MP's doesn't deliver then you need to be prepared to 'fight for your rights' straight away, or accept that you have lost. Leaving it until they are voting and kicking of outside parliment is way to late..... If you want a master class in this tactic just observe the french farmers...

Just my opinion,

Adrian

p.s. I have just made an appointment to see my MP about anti 4x4 legislation, have you?