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Series III gearbox rebuild


Gazzar

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What exactly is the problem with the speedo?

Because there is very little to go wrong in the series setup. The speedo gear isn't driven directly by the box - it is powered by friction.

I don't think it would be a major job to strip the lot down, in the landrover, and rebuild.

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well for starters, the series is in bits anyway awaiting a galv chassis after my incident.

nothings wrong with the speedo as such, but i have coiler diffs in it, putting the speedo out by quite a bit. around 30% IIRC

if i could put coiler gearing in the series transfer box then my speedo would read 70 when doing 70 instead of 55

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Try and find a different speedo head, they have a rev/mile number at the bottom of them, and do some maths to work out which should be about OK :)

Weirdly I have a SWB lightweight and 235/85s on it at the mo, and the speedo is bang on, most accurate speedo I own!

Sorry for OT :)

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Why not just play with the shims? Add some to slow the speedo down, remove to speed up (or is tithe other way around?).

Good way to spend the day achieving nothing!

G.

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Speedo used to be erratic in my 88, until I changed the gearbox....

th_IMG_0444.jpg

th_IMG_0448.jpg

...a PO had obviously stripped the thread on the output shaft and tried to weld the flange on...weld hadn't taken to the flange, and it was moving back and forth. The problem got worse the more miles we did, as the shaft got warm and expanded, the oil got warm and thinner and got in the gap, and then there just wasnt any friction to drive the speedo until she's been left long enough to cool down and the oil to run out...usually into the handbrake....

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I have only just discovered this site. Brilliant!

Perhaps I can add something. I have worked a a few Series gearboxes, although only on my second complete re-build. I have found that the sheer weight and awkwardness of it makes it not only difficult but a bit hazzardous if it should fall off the bench when you are heaving on a particularly tight nut.

After a bit of time in the thinking chair I came up with a set of legs to put it in when working. They were so successfull that I made a second set to use for storage (actually there is a third set half made). A piucture is worth a thousand words, so let's save space.

It is high enough to get a container underneath when you are cleaning it and you can roll it over to get at the underneath. When on its side I keep the lifting tackle attached in case it slips.

Made from two pieces of 100mm x 4mm steel and two pieces of 12 x 50mm lightweight box section, but that was what happened to be in the scrap box. Make up your own sizes to suit. Took about an hour, saved ages.

It results in a change to the order you strip down as it is then much easier to remove the bell housing first and then move rearwards. The transfer case remains in the frame and you take everything off it. All the other bits are manageable to lift by hand.

Hope this helps

BSF

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After reading all the above I am getting somewhere on the origins of the Series 3 'box I am working on (no number that makes sense anywhere, just a ground off part on the trans case with "GW 1924 TT" stamped on it).It appears to be a bit of a "bitzer" rebuild in the past. The layshaft (which has broken teeth and is being replaced) has the letter "D" stamped on it, but it would appear from the parts manual that Suff C and D layshafts were the same.

The case has the reinforcement bits on the right-side, a part number FRC1809 CA (which makes no sense) in the casting but no BL logo. I imagine the cases are largely interchangable.

It is not a suff A as the reverse idler has roller bearings

It is not a Suff D as it does not have coffin shaped teeth on the 3rd/top engagement dog

That leaves Suff B or C, unfortunately the layshaft changed between them.

Any ideas?

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No BL logo, but series 3 box would suggest that its a very late box, wouldn't it? And the layshaft would be consistent, I think.

I'll look at the casting on mine tomorrow and see if there is any similar casting marks.

G.

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I am hoping that the pics will come out this time!

Perhaps I can add something. I have worked a a few Series gearboxes, although only on my second complete re-build. I have found that the sheer weight and awkwardness of it makes it not only difficult but a bit hazzardous if it should fall off the bench when you are heaving on a particularly tight nut.

After a bit of time in the thinking chair I came up with a set of legs to put it in when working. They were so successfull that I made a second set to use for storage (actually there is a third set half made). A picture is worth a thousand words, so let's save space. (it hasn't got casters, it's the wheel of my gantry you can see)

Pub1.jpg

Pub2.jpg

Pub3.jpg

It is high enough to get a container underneath when you are cleaning the gearbox (washing up bowl fits) and you can roll it over to get at the underneath. When on its side I keep the lifting tackle attached in case it slips.

DSC00015.jpg

Made from two pieces of 100mm x 4mm steel and two pieces of 12 x 50mm lightweight box section about 2ft 4ins long, but that was what happened to be in the scrap box. The longer 100x4 needs to be bent, but a few wacks with a club hammer while it is in the vice does the job (I am assuming no-one works on a Land Rover without several sizes of hammer) Make up your own sizes to suit. Took about an hour (another 15 mins for the second one), saved ages.

It results in a change to the order you strip down as it is then much easier to remove the bell housing first and then move rearwards. The transfer case remains in the frame and you take everything off it. All the other bits are manageable to lift by hand.

Hope this helps

BSF

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Excellent post, and perfect timing too as I'm currently stripping a suffix B box down and have a suffix A to do afterwards. The only problem I'm having at the moment is removing the intermediate shaft, as it's stuck in pretty solid. I saw you used a crowbar, but I can't find mine at present...will have to keep looking. The normal pry bars I have have only managed to move it out a short distance so far. Where you've resorted to the chisel to remove the mainshaft nut though, I would recommend the purchase of the proper tool 600300 especially for refitting the new one. I know they're about £50 on ebay, but I've used mine a few times and it's bloody useful on the impact gun and well worth the money. Good luck with the rest of the rebuild, I'm following along nicely! :D

DSCF1299.jpg

DSCF1298.jpg

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After reading all the above I am getting somewhere on the origins of the Series 3 'box I am working on (no number that makes sense anywhere, just a ground off part on the trans case with "GW 1924 TT" stamped on it).It appears to be a bit of a "bitzer" rebuild in the past. The layshaft (which has broken teeth and is being replaced) has the letter "D" stamped on it, but it would appear from the parts manual that Suff C and D layshafts were the same.

The case has the reinforcement bits on the right-side, a part number FRC1809 CA (which makes no sense) in the casting but no BL logo. I imagine the cases are largely interchangable.

It is not a suff A as the reverse idler has roller bearings

It is not a Suff D as it does not have coffin shaped teeth on the 3rd/top engagement dog

That leaves Suff B or C, unfortunately the layshaft changed between them.

Any ideas?

In the back of the Haynes manual in the supplement section it lists all of the changes through the suffixes, that's how I eventually identified my box.

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Well, I've nearly caught up with you now as I got another crowbar and got the shaft out, so the gearbox itself is now off and cleaned up. The first of my new parts have arrived, just awaiting a few more deliveries. I had to get a new speedo housing too as the one was found to be damaged near the seal...hence why there was silicone sealant over the back! I've still got the shafts to strip down and the transfer box to start on. :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

To the OP who started the thread.

The photo of the 3rd/top syncro in close up showing the bronze syncro cone inner surface looks like it has no serrations left on the lands in one of the pics, if so its junk.

The 1st/2nd syncro hub is the wrong one for a D as it too should have the ECM teeth inside the straight teeth are for A, B & C boxes, so that is also junk. I can tell you that this one is actually for a B or C box.

The 'early breather' on the top cover is std MOD spec.

The drive fit bolts in the bellhousing should by rights be the other way around with the nuts inside.

The reverse idler shaft should have a roll pin in the hole in the larger end to engage in the slot in its casing bore.

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Can anyone shed a light on something that's troubling me with this? As the 3rd and 4th gear are removed showing the bush, Gazzar states it's a one piece item on his box which appears to be a late unit, whereas on mine which is a Suffix B it is also a one piece unit (which wasa found sheared into 3!) bt when ordering the parts from the catalogue it clearly shows it as a 2 piece unit FRC4076 & FRC4077 which is what I now have. Was there a late change to the 2 piece unit possibly to avoid the fracturing?

Gazzar please come back, we're all dying to see more :)

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Re my previous post about identifying a gearbox.

It turned out to be a suff D case with Suff A shafts and gears (except later roller bearing reverse idler). It was obviously someone's bodge overhaul not too long ago as evidenced by an attempt to repair the lay shaft by welding.

All seems to be working now and waiting to go in when I do the 200 di conversion.

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To the OP who started the thread.

The photo of the 3rd/top syncro in close up showing the bronze syncro cone inner surface looks like it has no serrations left on the lands in one of the pics, if so its junk.

The 1st/2nd syncro hub is the wrong one for a D as it too should have the ECM teeth inside the straight teeth are for A, B & C boxes, so that is also junk. I can tell you that this one is actually for a B or C box.

The 'early breather' on the top cover is std MOD spec.

The drive fit bolts in the bellhousing should by rights be the other way around with the nuts inside.

The reverse idler shaft should have a roll pin in the hole in the larger end to engage in the slot in its casing bore.

Phil, Thanks for this, much appreciated!

The photo of the 3rd/top syncro in close up showing the bronze syncro cone inner surface looks like it has no serrations left on the lands in one of the pics, if so its junk.

Do you refer to the picture in post #36? I'm not good with the actual terms, so do you mean the indentations that grip the chrome cones on the gears? If so then these are fine (no wear apparent, sharp ridges), and it's just the way the picture appears.

The 1st/2nd syncro hub is the wrong one for a D as it too should have the ECM teeth inside the straight teeth are for A, B & C boxes, so that is also junk. I can tell you that this one is actually for a B or C box.

I'll look into this, and see if it matches the gears themselves, or is it the case that the mainshaft isn't interchangable?

The 'early breather' on the top cover is std MOD spec.

I'm not entirely sure - not disagreeing with you, but the way it was done is very crude, though it might have been "modified" after release from the MOD.

The drive fit bolts in the bellhousing should by rights be the other way around with the nuts inside.

Right - it will go back according to the book.

The reverse idler shaft should have a roll pin in the hole in the larger end to engage in the slot in its casing bore.

Already picked that one up - a new pin is on the order list.

Again, thanks!

G.

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Re my previous post about identifying a gearbox.

It turned out to be a suff D case with Suff A shafts and gears (except later roller bearing reverse idler). It was obviously someone's bodge overhaul not too long ago as evidenced by an attempt to repair the lay shaft by welding.

All seems to be working now and waiting to go in when I do the 200 Tdi conversion.

fixed it for ya otherwise you may aswell fit a 2.5

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It's a matter of opinion about the turbo. I'm not sure I want a 34 year old 109 with over 110 BHP, even if it has got disc brakes.

I just want a reliable engine that does a bit more MPG than the 14 I'm getting from the ancient two-and-a-quarter petrol. The vehicle is my workhorse moving and towing things as required. Richard from Glencoyn puts up a good case.

As for using a 2.5, the 200 di is already hanging on the chain tackle in the workshop having been aquired a few months ago, so there seems no point in getting anything else. It came out of a fairly low mileage Disco that was rusting away, so I'm guessing it is not worn out yet.

I went through the power phase in 1969 when I put a big engine in a Ford Anglia, although I have just put a straight six into an 80inch series 1, but that was just for the wonderful noise it makes.

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For BSF's attention:

A Di is OK if you are happy with the performance you get from a 2.25 engine, but don't chose that configuration merely to save you gear box. I have been using a 200Tdi in my 109 for four years and nearly 25,000 miles now. The transmission is all standard SIII except for an overdrive, and because the vehicle weighs an estimated 1/2T more than a standard 109 and has a lot more aerodynamic drag from the roof rack, spots, bull bar, mudflaps, and the bonnet mounted pioneer tools and spare wheel, it gets driven at full throttle more than a bare 109 might be. I have had no trouble at all from the gear box, even when I recently forgot to refit the top-fill cover on the box after a top-up and drove it for about 100 miles while the oil was slung out. As long as you drive with consideration for the transmission, ie. with gentle pedal inputs and time up-changes to give engine rpm of comfortably below the max-torque value of 1800rpm, then you won't shock load the transmission.

As far as handling or braking is concerned, you needn't worry. The engine is mechanically governed to 4250rpm (and "acoustically governed" to about 3000), which is less than the 2.25 petrol, so maximum speed, even with an overdrive, is going to be the same as before the transplant. It's the acceleration and ability to hold speed uphill which changes.

So, while deleting the turbo makes installation a little easier and cheaper, it shouldn't be considered to have any mechanical advantage over the Tdi - I have known people to regularly smash transmissions with 2.25 diesels and bad driving.

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