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Series III gearbox rebuild


Gazzar

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you dont even have to be that gentle with the throttle, as long as you dont snatch the clutch, you can do a racing start (and a bloody quick one at that) no problems at all, but i wouldnt try a wheelspin start. let the clutch out smoothly and then you can apply all the power its got, it wont break...

..... he says.

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My 88 has a TDi minus intercooler, standard series 4-speed with a constant loss oil system, fairey OD, series transfer case and 3.54 diffs, all driving 7.50's, and has never done any damage to the gearing, but I have a steady right foot. She's driven many a thousand mile that way, and returns 35mpg on a run when me and the wife take turns to drive. she's a much harsher driver than me so I'd probably get more on my own. Its all about how you drive, not what the gearbox can take.

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Sorry about the topic drift, guys. I'm really just filling in time till Gazzer gets back to the gearbox.

Just to put the record straight, I have never been worried about a 200 Tdi breaking my gearbox.

I have a 200 engine without a turbo doing nothing, the petrol engine in the 109 won't last much longer and I want more MPG and as little hassle as possible out of the replacement. It all looks logical to me.

Remember the first rules of good design; "Simplify, and add lightness".

Anyway, back to gearboxes........ Gazzer.......?

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Phil, Thanks for this, much appreciated!

The photo of the 3rd/top syncro in close up showing the bronze syncro cone inner surface looks like it has no serrations left on the lands in one of the pics, if so its junk.

Do you refer to the picture in post #36? I'm not good with the actual terms, so do you mean the indentations that grip the chrome cones on the gears? If so then these are fine (no wear apparent, sharp ridges), and it's just the way the picture appears.

The 1st/2nd syncro hub is the wrong one for a D as it too should have the ECM teeth inside the straight teeth are for A, B & C boxes, so that is also junk. I can tell you that this one is actually for a B or C box.

I'll look into this, and see if it matches the gears themselves, or is it the case that the mainshaft isn't interchangable?

Again, thanks!

G.

The pics in post 36 showing the inside of the 3rd/top syncro were the ones i was referring to as some look smooth on the lands where they grip the steel cones of the gears.

The inside teeth of the 1st/2nd syncro should look like the teeth in post 35 pic #8 to be correct for a D box.

The mainshaft does not change from A to D suffix.

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Sorry about the topic drift, guys. I'm really just filling in time till Gazzer gets back to the gearbox.

Just to put the record straight, I have never been worried about a 200 Tdi breaking my gearbox.

I have a 200 engine without a turbo doing nothing, the petrol engine in the 109 won't last much longer and I want more MPG and as little hassle as possible out of the replacement. It all looks logical to me.

Remember the first rules of good design; "Simplify, and add lightness".

Anyway, back to gearboxes........ Gazzer.......?

Fair enough then, a Di for all the right reasons. :)
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Now another gearbox question, not for me, but I seem to be involved.

The vehicle is a "bitzer", so the question is very specific.

Can you fit a Series 2 bell housing to a Series 3 gearbox? I know you can't fit a Series 2A bell housing to a 3 'box because the lay shaft journal is too big.

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  • 3 months later...

Excellent thread. Earlier in the thread there was mention of using bearing fixer on the output bearing to stop the oil leaking into the transfer case. I need to do this on my ser 3 but dont want to have all the hassle of stripping down the box. So, is it possible to seal the output bearing/oil seal without dismantling the gearbox? I have a new output seal but if the problem is the bearing then just replacing the seal probably wont work.

Regards

Timppl

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  • 2 months later...

Sorry for the delay on this; I don't know where the time goes, and don't have time to find out, either.

The plan is to assess this box and see if it's economical to rebuild, if so, to do the work for mid August.

So,

Some pictures of the bits I plan to junk, and why. Opinions requested, as it would reduce the cost to re-use these parts. The cost of parts is now at £600+ VAT.

Oh, and this box will go behind a V8, so it's got to be good.

First up - the layshaft.

This is all good except for the very last cog, which has a tooth badly corroded. Just one tooth is really bad but the rest aren't too hot.

2012-07-31-687.jpg

Verdict, junk, possibly kept for a hackabout gearbox. Or as a dumbell when I get around to getting fit again. Laugh.

3rd 4th syncro thing:

2012-07-31-682.jpg

2012-07-31-681.jpg

The little coffin shaped teeth are damaged on the very tip - between the top of the coffin and the front two faces.

Result - junk. I think. Again, could be ok in a hackabout, but not in a good box.

The In-out 1/2 gear

2012-07-31-683.jpg

Same issue - I think that these are key to a clear / clean gear change so it isn't good enough.

Second gear

2012-07-31-684.jpg

DItto

Reverse, just worn out, I think.

2012-07-31-685.jpg

ANd 1st

2012-07-31-686.jpg

Chipped coffins. So probably not good enough for a 1st rate box.

Syncro rings. These are probably fine, but as I'm changing everything else around them I might as well do them too.

2012-07-31-688.jpg

Or is the quality of these little parts irrelevant?

G.

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Yes, those serrations are very important, however on this one they're fine, it's just the in-focus of the camera is very tight at close up. I'll take a few pics and post them up to show (or be proved wrong!!).

G.

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Thinking about it you should maybe replace those 3 leaf springs on the 3-4 synchro as with two out of two gearboxes that I have in both cases one had snapped, got chewed up by the cogs and came out in bits through the oil drain! Looking around on google this is a very very commom fault.

I got a brand new 3/4 synchro (Bearmach) for mine as I didn't want to take a chance. Also I suspect that the leaf spring going through the cogs must cause so form of collateral damage :-(

Julian.

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Yes, that's good advice - all syncro springs will be changed - all bearings/seals/gaskets/thrust washers/circlips will be changed.

Anyway - pictures as discussed:

2012-07-31-689.jpg

2012-07-31-690.jpg

2012-07-31-691.jpg

I think I'm hitting the limits of the camera macro function.

G.

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Opinions requested, as it would reduce the cost to re-use these parts. The cost of parts is now at £600+ VAT.

My opinion? Don't bother. It cost me £400 +VAT to have my main 'box reconditioned at AW, and its comes with a 12-month warantee. If you spend £600+ on parts and get it wrong, ok the box still has to come out, but you've got to start again, and possibly buy more parts at your expense....Even Midland only want 695+VAT to do both main and t'box

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My opinion? Don't bother. It cost me £400 +VAT to have my main 'box reconditioned at AW, and its comes with a 12-month warantee. If you spend £600+ on parts and get it wrong, ok the box still has to come out, but you've got to start again, and possibly buy more parts at your expense....Even Midland only want 695+VAT to do both main and t'box

But for £400 you'll get cheap Chinese bearings, Britpart internals and they'll be bending over backwards to make parts 'go-again.' I could throw a box together for less than that and get 12 months plus a bit out of it.

I guess the path you go down is determined by what you want out of it, but my idea is to rebuild the gearbox to the best of my ability using quality bearings and components and (touch wood) have a long and happy life with it!

Julian.

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Who says cheap bearings are rubbish? I've spent far too long on these boards but never come across anyone saying that a cheap bearing has failed or didn't fit or was slack, Nor for that matter have I found a cheap one in a box that I've dismantled that has failed. All the bearings that I've found severely worn have been genuine - and yes the boxes have been either abused or well worn.

I know the Britpart layshaft back bearing doesn't look very pretty but that's due to the cage and that's probably exclusive to that application and specially made. When I did fit one it went in OK and sounded fine.

I'm wondering if we're stressing unnecessarily and there are better things that we could be spending the cash on - like beer?

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secondjeremy..

have you ever tried britpart wheelbearings.

i think youll find a crappy cheap bearing there. case hardening thats way too thin, and coupled with their grease that cant normally hack it either, they dont last 5 minutes.

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But for £400 you'll get cheap Chinese bearings, Britpart internals and they'll be bending over backwards to make parts 'go-again.' I could throw a box together for less than that and get 12 months plus a bit out of it.

You would think yes, BUT! Andrew makes a point of giving his customers the bits back that he's replaced....and in that box there's most of my old gears, and looking at them I would have re-used them, he didn't. Synchro rings the same, I would have re-used them, not Andrew.

As for wheel bearings, IIRC when I first got Kettle and before I knew any better, I replaced one side with Britpart wheel bearings. 6 years later......

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Who says cheap bearings are rubbish? I've spent far too long on these boards but never come across anyone saying that a cheap bearing has failed or didn't fit or was slack, Nor for that matter have I found a cheap one in a box that I've dismantled that has failed. All the bearings that I've found severely worn have been genuine - and yes the boxes have been either abused or well worn.

I know the Britpart layshaft back bearing doesn't look very pretty but that's due to the cage and that's probably exclusive to that application and specially made. When I did fit one it went in OK and sounded fine.

I'm wondering if we're stressing unnecessarily and there are better things that we could be spending the cash on - like beer?

I recently purchased a nice new cheap 1/2 ton trailer, within about 500 miles I noticed play in the bearings so tightened them up and greased them. Coming from Lincolnshire back home with the trailer I just made it back with one of the wheels rumbling badly. I went to 'The Bearing Mart' in Jackson Street, Manchester for new ones and the counter assistant took one look at them and said 'Cheap Chinese trailer wheel bearings, we sell replacements by the hundred.' And I hadn't prompted him.... So yes, I'm absolutely certain that there's a marked difference in quality and on something like a series box, as it's such a PITA to replace I'd deffo go for some 'branded' bearings and go without the beer :-) Take a chance on other stuff if you like, but not when there's so much work at stake.

Julian.

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You would think yes, BUT! Andrew makes a point of giving his customers the bits back that he's replaced......

Ah, but (cleverly) he doesn't, or can't show you the stuff that he's replaced it WITH - I bet he burns the little blue boxes on a daily basis! (only kidding, I don't know Andrew and I'm not casting aspersions)

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It's something I wonder about, too. I've heard that a well respected LR transmission specialist has lots of blueboxes, but few complaints. I suspect that they know what parts are good and what are rubbish, and buy accordingly.

However, I don't know what parts are good and what are rubbish, and if I'm building a box for someone I can't take the risk of poor parts. I'm also not doing this enough to get a trade account, so have to pay full punter prices.

So I fit bearmach parts, gaco seals, timken or toyo bearings, and britpart LR sourced parts. If I'd used all LR parts I'd be well over £1,000 plus vat by now.

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