3 Link ?...or what other options maybe ?

[dollythelw]

nice to get feedback from the other side Andy - was the offending "gold" welding rejected or was it ever fitted to a roadgoing vehicle?

[GBMUD]

Andy Daws

Andy. I think there may be one or two people on here who do not know your name - I am one. Would you mind letting us know the name of the company you are representing and you position? Just so there is no confusion.

Thanks.

Chris

[Mark]

Just to clarify Gon2Far / White Peak / QT:

White Peak is Andy Dawes who developed the 3-link kit

.....

Would be good to hear from the man himself though...

Mark

[GBMUD]

White Peak is Andy Dawes who developed the 3-link kit

D'OH!

Chris

[SteveG]

Andy. I think there may be one or two people on here who do not know your name - I am one. Would you mind letting us know the name of the company you are representing and you position? Just so there is no confusion.

Thanks.

Chris

Andy, don't say anything - Chris is one of the worst moderators on here and is like the gestapo, once he has you talking the questions will never stop!!

Cheers

Steve

[SOA 93]

I don't like 3 links that use a single lower link. The single upper link, even offset to clear the engine sump is much better IMHO.

The X-link idea of Glen Dobbins, is very good for a truck that is driven on road and off. And for all intents and purposes it articulates as good as most 3 links. I would use the X-link before a 3 link with single lower, or if there is a clearance problem for a single upper.

IMHO, the X-link is a better solution than the 5 link/missing link.

There is another way to improve articulation from radius arm suspension. Use a normal radius arm on one side, and a custom radius arm, with closely spaced bushes (at axle end) on the other side. Body roll is not as good on road, and articulation, though better than stock, is not as good as a 3 link. Handling under brakes is reasonable and better than 5 link. Does not have the same wear problems as Sam's holey bushes.

John, in posts on other threads I know you've a few opinions on roll centres, I am definately going the Dobson X-route, and due to packaging of track rod, X-link beam and ram assist all on the front of the axle the panhard rod 'axle mount' is gonna need lifting a little from the standard position. Chassis end will be relocated but stay at the same height, the mount on the axle is gonna need lifting approx 2", Disc will get a 3" lift approx.

As I have to fabricate an A-frame mount for the rear axle, do I raise this mount an equal amount to the front panhard lift to keep the difference in roll centres the same?

Will raising the A-frame axle mount have a positive or negative effect on rear geometry?

Will raising the roll centres have a huge effect on the Disco's handling?

Does any of this make sense?

Opinion invited please.

Andy

[geoffbeaumont]

Andy, don't say anything - Chris is one of the worst moderators on here and is like the gestapo, once he has you talking the questions will never stop!!

Cheers

Steve

Okay, got the EDIS wired up to the crocodile clips, and a couple of nice bright driving lights ready. He's all yours Chris

[SteveG]

I don't like 3 links that use a single lower link. The single upper link, even offset to clear the engine sump is much better IMHO.

I never had a problem with the custom 3-Link on the hybrid running with this lower set-up and I'm pretty sure Tim hasn't since. Other people on this forum are running with a similar set-up again on their own self-build 3-links with no problems of fatigue etc too.

Also I don't understand why people are so against the 3-Link if people use their LR's on the road too. I can't comment on the off the shelf 3-Links as I haven't driven them, but 18 months of driving the hybrid on all sorts of roads/conditions it was never been a problem handling wise. Fitting Simex has more of an impact in road use and safety in my opinion.

Cheers

Steve

[GBMUD]

Okay, got the EDIS wired up to the crocodile clips,

Ah ha, the nipple clamps

Chris

[SOA 93]

I never had a problem with the custom 3-Link on the hybrid running with this lower set-up and I'm pretty sure Tim hasn't since. Other people on this forum are running with a similar set-up again on their own self-build 3-links with no problems of fatigue etc too.

Also I don't understand why people are so against the 3-Link if people use their LR's on the road too. I can't comment on the off the shelf 3-Links as I haven't driven them, but 18 months of driving the hybrid on all sorts of roads/conditions it was never been a problem handling wise. Fitting Simex has more of an impact in road use and safety in my opinion.

Cheers

Steve

That's really good to hear! Anyone else running a three link of some description?

Would be nice to know what people 'who have first hand experience of three link' think of them on the road,

don't think anybodies questioning their ability off road.

Might be useful to know what lift/ front spring your using aswell.

cheers

Andy

[landy_andy]

nice to get feedback from the other side Andy - was the offending "gold" welding rejected or was it ever fitted to a roadgoing vehicle?

Hi Dolly,

Please refer to my origional posting... re the parts for Jerry's truck. It's currently not complete & will have replacement parts prior to it being used.

Cheers,

Andy

[Turbocharger]

Summarising above, considered opinion is to separate the links vertically as far as possible, and ideally use a single link above the axle centreline if the engine wasn't in the way. Is there a good reason why nobody's suggested carrying this top link on an A-frame (in a similar way to the rear axle) or even as a gusseted J-bar down one side of the engine? With the A-frame you could even dispense with the panhard rod then if you were confident about the lateral stiffness; I guess it'd be a pretty 'open' frame though.

I can see potential for such a system with removable (or active) anti-roll bars (hence my question about Discovery ACE elsewhere) too.

Just playing with ideas really.

[MasterSplicer]

I have driven since 2000 a 3-link from Safarigard,never had really problems with it. Not on the road or of the road. I have to say that the setup of the springs and shocks can result in a totally other driving car as before.

I always had the impression that even changing the pressure in side the shocks made the handling different. But a Def on extrem tires is not driving as a go cart really.

Then i build them my self ,because a had some problems with the space what was lost underneath the axel, but this again was causing me to get the trackrod removed. My disign is totally different from what i have seen so far. Trackrod has to go and hydr.steering ram is doing the job. Panhard rod has to go as wel. During the Croatia Trophy 2005 my panhard rod came of the car taking with him the complete chassis rail on that side. Car wasn't to steer anymore. But this was also because of the extrem articulation in the front axel 16 inch shocks. This was working ok but the side to side movement of the axel was from another planet.

But the forces controled by the panhard are very extrem. Now i am trying to tackle the same problem with a 4 link system and the panhard rod is gone. Hydr.steer gives me more freedom in working really.

But i would like to point out a negative aspect of the Safarigard 3-link setup what i never have seen anybody writing/talking of.

When you are really heavy backingup the car into a steep bank and it really needs to be done with some power/speed then you can see something really strange going on. It's not really strange anymore as you realise what happens. The rubbers inside the 3 member are completly compressed,both sides and on that same time it's almost if the axels is going to turn arround it's own axel. On that time during Croatia it was causing a hughe dent underneath the engine. I have to say that we used bigger propshaft with drive flanges of 100 mm in diameter. But on the same time when this happens the angle of the differential is changing completly as wel. In my opinion the rubbers are part of this problem and the 3 members center is really close to the centerline of the axel casing. What i realised there in the field was that when it really would be able to flip over then you never can bring it back into the position as it should be. Of course everything would be twisted and bend.

How ever that is just the only big but from my point of view of the Safarigard unit.

The complete set is very nicly made and very wel welded. Even the paint is from a very good sort. Bolts washers it's al there.

Would i use it again , don't think so because i would like to move on with making/trying things. Many times it's one step forwards and in another field 2 steps going back. Til you have sorted that problem.

Hope this is any help in your discussion.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Got some pics of your set up please ?

Where abouts are you ?

Nige

[MasterSplicer]

You are the same as the one i sended the rear MM winch photo's aren't you?? Hybrid from hell is the name??

When that's the case then i only can say i never had any reply on them,even it took me some time to collect the info ou requested

[pugwash]

as someone said before- whats wrong with a four link system.

From the (very) little i know i would say that a 3-link is too weak for a portal axle setup (not totally relevant to many here) and certainly so if using a lower central link.

a four link with 2 uppper and 2 lower link has always seemed to make sense to me- but i rarely hear it talked about. I know you can have sump clearance issues, but is this still the case with V8 sumps?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Yep thats me !

Really odd as I did a reply to you with a "Cool Ta"

Sorry you didn't get the email ?....would seem rude if I didn't reply ?

Kin PC s !...or prob me !

Ping me pics if you don't host pics and I'll post them up here for you ?

Sorry gain, most wierd ?

Nige

[dollythelw]

Andy - thanks for clearing that up

He's nice Rob

[LR90]

He's nice Rob

You could have waited till we'd seen him grovel a bit more

[SteveG]

That's really good to hear! Anyone else running a three link of some description?

Would be nice to know what people 'who have first hand experience of three link' think of them on the road,

don't think anybodies questioning their ability off road.

Might be useful to know what lift/ front spring your using aswell.

cheers

Andy

Britpart 4202's, 230lb front springs, about 1.5" lift on front, RR red/whites on rear. The heavier front springs probably help to offset the tendancy of the 3-Link to roll on road.

Steve

[landy_andy]

Dunno about blind, never met him in person and don't really want to now.

John,

I'm sorry you feel that way, we seemed to get on fine when we met at Donnington & Gaydon shows. I'm also sorry that you got dragged into the issues regarding the removal of my products from the G2F website hosted by you web company following the business split. However, I was receiving calls & emails from unhappy customers desperately trying to order G2F products that were not of my product range or supply, unfortunately I could not help them.

No hard feelings mate,

Andy

[bill van snorkle]

Pugwash, Sorry your'e wrong. Perhaps the commercially available 3 link systems are too weak, particularly with portal axles. But as I have built 3 extreme vehicles, 2 with portals, all with upper 3rd links that are used as daily drivers in stop start traffic in addition to offroading in difficult conditions without issues i cannot let your statement go unchallenged.

Master Splicer. The phenomenon you describe when reversing is as expected with a 3 link with lower 3rd. When the Safari Guard unit which had not been fully developed at that time participated in the

'' Defender Twist Off" in the USA some years ago. the system suffered a catastrophic failure during heavy braking . The diff toggled up snapping the propshaft and the truck overturned. Braking whilst travelling forward and reversing imposes the torque reaction forces in the same direction.

If the single 3rd link is placed closer to the axleshaft centreline than the links on each side then it is obviously going to be subject to much more compression and tensile stress. If the single 3rd is placed at double the distance from the axleshaft centreline as the links on each side then the forces on all links should be about equal. It is impractical to do this on a commercial 3 link because that would further compromise the already poor ground clearance these units give. The only way I can see these kits working correctly is if all link end bushings were replaced with non compliant ball joints, but then noise and vibration transmission into the cabin of Defender type Landeys may be annoying.

Bill.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

but then noise and vibration transmission into the cabin of Defender type Landeys may be annoying.

Hmmmm

Good points Bill, but you ahve a couple of erros I have to say

1. Noise and my truck - yeah ok.........I don't think so

2. Plus I am part deaf - prob due to 1. above (if not age)

Seriously this has been an very interersting and informative thread from many who know their stuff.

I am concerned at fitting a 3 link partly due to the soft springs and BHP sillyness for road use, I have phoned and spoken to many (ta Paul W) and they all say handling is a bit like a pi**ed Pig driving a 2CV.....on a good day.

Then there is the truely unarguebale loss of clearnce with the kits that bolt to the bottom, hm,mmmmm

Having then looked at the SH SG Kit I was not overly impressed with the strength, it is built to a price and not to a spec.

The Gon2Far kit 0- forget it, no way hose would I have that, the words around "Sub Contrcated welding" doesn't convince me 1 jot as I have just been to a stoclist of the stiff ho said "what do you think of these welds nige ?" - not miuch, and its still an lower link system

having thjoyght long and hard 3 Link maybe not fopr me, I have maybe now some more ideas for further tweaks which IO may pursue, in the meantime unless anyone comes up with a well made decent top linked 3 link all I can say is ta all for you imput truly great info and thread

Nige

[dirtydiesel]

I never had a problem with the custom 3-Link on the hybrid running with this lower set-up and I'm pretty sure Tim hasn't since. Other people on this forum are running with a similar set-up again on their own self-build 3-links with no problems of fatigue etc too.

Also I don't understand why people are so against the 3-Link if people use their LR's on the road too. I can't comment on the off the shelf 3-Links as I haven't driven them, but 18 months of driving the hybrid on all sorts of roads/conditions it was never been a problem handling wise. Fitting Simex has more of an impact in road use and safety in my opinion.

Cheers

Steve

The problem with 3-link is bending the axle case.

Most of the home built setups ie; yours and pauls, offer little or nothing in the way of bracing to stop the axle twisting.

Rover axle cases are like chocolate as they are never mind asking them to take the huge loads associated with a 3-link setup.

[Diff]

Summarising above, considered opinion is to separate the links vertically as far as possible, and ideally use a single link above the axle centreline if the engine wasn't in the way. Is there a good reason why nobody's suggested carrying this top link on an A-frame (in a similar way to the rear axle) or even as a gusseted J-bar down one side of the engine? With the A-frame you could even dispense with the panhard rod then if you were confident about the lateral stiffness; I guess it'd be a pretty 'open' frame though.

I can see potential for such a system with removable (or active) anti-roll bars (hence my question about Discovery ACE elsewhere) too.

Just playing with ideas really.

Hi John,

Using an A frame type top link on the front is possible, but packaging is difficult due to the engine being in the way, and you would need full hydro steering ideally. This is because it would be well located laterally, making the panhard rod redundant. This means the axle will move straight up and down, and would impose some bump steer on a conventional steering set up as on a Land Rover.

Regards,

Diff