Calling all Wiring Gods!

[Defender_300Tdi]

Hi All

Ok, so here is the deal, I have a ROW spec 300Tdi Defender 110 (center dash with the post 2002 switches etc), I have recently managed to get hold of some front doors which have genuine landy parts electric windows (posh I know). I have bought two of the genuine land rover parts electric window switches. Now the big question, I know that these switches are not capable of handling loads (or rather I read that somewhere on here I think). So I guess I will have to wire them through a relay?

Question is, how do I do this, I am very mechanically minded but I HATE electrical things that have anymore than two wires. Ideally if someone can draw me a nice diagram to follow, tell me what type of relay or relays I need to buy and what gauge wire I need, then I am pretty sure I can get the rest together. I plan on taking a feed from an addition fuse box I have mounted in the battery box. Incidentally what rating fuse should I be using?

I know its a big ask, but I dont what to destroy my land rover in a fire!

Thanks in advance.

Rob

[Defender_300Tdi]

I also have a heated screen and mirrors to wire in. I have read through some of the posts on here and I would like to wire it through my post 2002 dash switch for front heated screens. The screen I have is the two connection type, I was going to use a timer relay like this:

http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/info_74205.html

And a 70amp relay like this:

http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/info_2811R.html

I know this has been covered before in the tech archives but I couldn't find the right document! Also what gauge wire would I need as well?

Thanks in advance

Robert

[Mark]

You need to have a chat with Retroanaconda - he has a lot of in depth knowledge of these looms...

[Retroanaconda]

Well I try

Robert,

Electric Windows

Two ways of doing it, firstly you can replicate the standard wiring:

(remember pin numbers are looking at the end of the connector, as if you were the switch)

For the front electric windows, there are no relays as standard. The power is run directly through the switches to the motors, and comes from fuse 34 for the RH window and fuse 35 for the LH window. Power is supplied to both these fuses from the ignition relay on a brown/slate wire (4.00mm² - should already be present as I believe it feeds many other fuses - just needs extending to feed the two empty slots).

From fuse 34 a slate/orange wire (2.00mm²) runs to pin 2 of the driver's E/W switch. Then an orange/red wire (1.50mm²) comes from pin 4 and feeds one side of the electric window motor. If you use the standard in-door looms then this needs to connect to the red wire on the RH door motor. The orange/blue wire from pin 3 on the E/W switch (also 1.50mm²) connects to the blue wire in the door loom. There is a black wire (1.50mm²) from pin 1 on the switch which is an earth path, it goes to header 0287 but earth it where you like!

The passenger's window is very similar. A red/green (2.00mm²) wire feeds the switch on pin 2 and there is another earth (1.50mm²) on pin 1 to the same header as before. The feeds for the motor are on pins 3 and 4 as before, and use a blue wire and a red wire respectively (both 1.50mm²). These connect directly to the red and blue wires in the door loom.

Both E/W switches have illumination provided to pin 6 on an red/orange wire (0.5mm²). Take this from the illumination header (0290) behind the centre console.

For what it's worth, I'm planning on doing this method as I have gotten hold of a high-spec Td5 loom and I am stripping all the wires, connectors etc. out of it and I will splice these into my ROW-spec loom.

Here is the wiring diagram for the factory method as above:

The other option is as you say to use your own wiring. I wouldn't bother with relays as the switches are designed for the load and you just add unnecessary wiring. You will need:

• Two 20A fused supplies (one for RH and one for LH window) in your aux fusebox.
  
• Some wiring (preferably four colours, red and blue, black and another for the feed).
  
• Feed both the switches on pin 2.
  
• Run pin 3 of each switch to the blue wire in the door loom.
  
• Run pin 4 of each switch to the red wire in the door loom.
  
• Provide an earth path on pin 1.
  
• Illumination on pin 6 if you desire.
  
• Use either 1.5mm² or 2.0mm² throughout (except for the illumination feed which is 0.5mm²).
  
• The plugs for the E/W switches can be found here.
  

Heated Front Screen/Mirrors

Again for this there are two methods, however the parts to do it the factory way are pretty expensive, for example the genuine timer relay is £80 to buy! I lucked out when I got the top-spec Td5 loom for £not much, so I have stripped it out and resulted in the following:

If you can do this then great, however I suspect it will be preferable for you to make up a custom loom. In that case you will need:

• A suitable switch (the Defender HFS switch is a momentary switch and can be used to a point).
  
• A momentary timer relay (like the one you linked to).
  
• A big chunky relay to carry the current (like the one you linked to).
  
• A 30-amp fused supply to the main current relay (use 6.00mm² wire for this and 4.00mm² from the relay to the screen and from screen to earth).
  

The momentary relay you linked to appears to be activated by a positive pulse, this differs from the factory system which uses a pulse to earth to activate the timer (along with an engine-running signal from the oil pressure switch - which you would likely not need to instigate unless you feel it is necessary).

So in order to provide this functionality you will need to reverse the operation of the dash switch. Looking at the wiring diagram I think it should be possible if you provide a 12V supply on pin 4 and an earth on pin 5. A wire runs from pin 1 to the timer relay trigger pin. Then simply use the timed output to trigger the main current relay, the feed to which you'll need to run from you aux fuse box.

I'm not sure the illumination would work if you did this, since as you'll have reversed the operation you'd need to provide an earth on pin 2 rather than the normal supply, and this would require extra relays etc.

Another method would be to use the body of another switch which fits the aperture but which is a simple latching switch (such as the rear wiper) and put the front faceplate from the HFS switch onto it. You could feed the on indicator in the switch from the output of the timer relay, but the switch would stay latched down. Or find a timer relay which can use a pulsed earth output, which would solve the problem altogether.

Anyway, I hope that's of help to you!

[Defender_300Tdi]

James you legend! Thank you so much! This is EXACTLY what I needed to know. Wiring GOD.

Just one question (and this one maybe somewhat difficult) how much cable would you estimate I would need to go down the custom route for both? I know that's kinda like how long is a piece of string type question!

Really what am I like? I'll buy you a pint or 5, James when I am back in next June!!

[Mark]

Told you...

[Retroanaconda]

No problem, glad it helped!

As for wiring lengths, if you're going to run these systems from an auxiliary fuse box then it would depend on where that was to be located. Under the battery box is the most likely location I would think, and this will keep the runs reasonably short.

Cable routing will also come into play, I should think the logical route for the cable runs would be in conduit under the floor plates, up the engine side of the bulkhead, and then in through one of the grommets to join the main harness behind the dash. Or run it on the inside under the carpet/soundproofing.

I can't really give a definite answer as you say, but I'll estimate for you. Best way really is to either crack out the tape measure, or just buy loads too much...that way you also have plenty of spare wiring for doing other things

For the electric windows, I would allow 6 feet from the fusebox to the switches (two runs), and another 6 feet from each switch to the doors (two runs per side). The earth can be sourced locally (there's an earth header behind the centre dash somewhere I believe) as can the illumination feed, both of these will need a couple of feet or so of wire.

Heated front screen is more involved, it depends where you locate the relays. I'd put the main current relay somewhere closer to the screen to minimise the volt drop over that wire, though bumping the feed wire up to 6.00mm² on the screen side of the relay will help negate that if it is better located elsewhere. As standard it is behind the fusebox panel. The timer relay is usually located behind the instrument binnacle. So the run to the main current relay would be 6 feet or so, then another 5-6 feet to feed the screen. The earth for the screen is actually located under the driver's seat on a ring terminal, but any good solid earth on the bodywork would suffice. The feeds to and from the switch and timer unit would need to be probably 7-8 feet or so, depending on where you put it.

It might be worth drawing out a rough sketch of the layout of the vehicle, putting the components on the map where you are going to locate them, and then coming up with some rough measurements from that. And then order twice that, nothing worse than being an inch short!

[mmgemini]

If it helps. I fitted my relays in the battery box for the heated front 'screen.

The wiring IIRC goes out the battery box into a spiral binding to keep things neat.

The wiring basically follows the main battery lead forward to the bulkhead, then up the bulkhead. There you have two options. Into the bulkhead where the main loom goes. I couldn't use that way as there's already too many wires in there.

If you look at the bulkhead from the passenger side. There's a rubber grommit under the vertical bit of the carpet. My wires I took through that grommit. Up the inside of the bulkhead and up to the base of the 'screen alongside the existing wiring.

Ther must be something in the archives as I remember asking if Velcro was god enough to hold the relays to save me stripping out the battery box to drill holes to fit them.

I use two timer heated rear relays from VWP for the job

HTH

[Defender_300Tdi]

Cheers guys, after reading up on it a bit more somebody on the LRO forum had posted this (I dont know if its of any help):

http://www.lro.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=60317

He has modded the heated screen switch as you say I think James. Does his system therefore give a factory "like" solution? I.e the switch would be depressed, the light would come on and then switch off after 10 mins heating?

The part I dont get is switching off, I think his is as per the factory build? If so then this would be the easiest method to go down I feel? One thing though how does the VWP Timer relay differ from the one I posted in the link earlier on?

http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/info_74205.html

I will be taking feds off the additional fuse box which is mounted in the battery box.

Regards

Rob

[Retroanaconda]

Ah, that'll do it then! Wasn't aware of that posting by PaulMC but that would certainly do the job, providing a positive 12V pulse to the timer relay for you. Then after 10 mins it would turn off (and the light on the switch would go out). I'm not sure how the relay differs, but the function should be similar. Which VWP relay were you looking at?

Most latching relays allow for a latch on - latch off function, so to turn it off you'd just press the switch again and it would disengage the supply relay. Assuming the timing relay latches like that.

[nickwilliams]

If it helps. I fitted my relays in the battery box for the heated front 'screen.

If you put relays or other components in the battery box then make sure it is well ventilated. The battery can evolve hydrogen if it is over charged, and the consequences of the sparking from the contacts of one of your relays igniting the mixture are unlikely to be pretty (especially if someone happens to be sitting in the passenger seat at the time!).

I agree that the likelihood of ignition are fairly remote, but the consequences are serious enough that it's worth ensuring that it can't happen.

My solution was to use an AGM battery (less likely to evolve hydrogen than a wet cell type, but still not impossible) and to put a ventilation hole covered in metal gauze in the battery box cover - like this:

Nick.

[Defender_300Tdi]

Ah, that'll do it then! Wasn't aware of that posting by PaulMC but that would certainly do the job, providing a positive 12V pulse to the timer relay for you. Then after 10 mins it would turn off (and the light on the switch would go out). I'm not sure how the relay differs, but the function should be similar. Which VWP relay were you looking at?

Most latching relays allow for a latch on - latch off function, so to turn it off you'd just press the switch again and it would disengage the supply relay. Assuming the timing relay latches like that.

James,

Here are the details for the VWP relay:

Heated rear window timer.

Swithes the rear window heater off after 10 minutes.

Ref GLR10. £15.12

The website isn't very helpful to be honest. To summarise what I am getting here:

If I say leave the switch ON, with the ignition ON but the engine not running would it still unlatch and switch off after 10 mins and the light go off?! Or should I work out a way to switch it from the oil pressure fed as Land Rover do.

I have attached Martins diagram below.

What I dont get by reading the diagram is where GW1 comes from and why PIN 1 on the switch appears to "T-off" and go somewhere else!

I dont know perhaps its me being thick (I hear you saying YES). But reading the description it says the GW1 comes from the ignition side of things, does that mean he made a split, to make two wires...one to go to the Timing Relay on PIN 3 and one to go to PIN 1 on the SWITCH, wait that then goes to PIN 4 on the timer. Now I am confused.

How I I then make this circuit work for the heated mirrors? As I want them to come on at the same time with the screen.

I feel I am almost there, maybe one more hurdle to cross!

Regards

Rob

[PaulMc]

Martin also posts on here as Dyna VT, PM him, I'm sure he'd offer some guidance.

The Polevolt Timer Relay you've linked to, as well as being expensive, is over-complicated with Configurable Time and Delay ON or OFF, that you don't need for a HFS.

The VWP Timer Relay is also dearer than the equivalent from AES -

http://www.autoelect...836/category/36

140270: 12V Timer Relay - £10.89 each

They also have a diagram for it, which corresponds with Martin's diagram -

On Martin's diagram, the GW (Green/White trace) wire is from an ignition-switched source and supplies power to Pins 3 and 4 on the Timer Relay, as well as the 'switching pulse' power to Pin 1 of the Switch.

Power for your Heated Mirrors should also be taken from Terminal 87 of the 70A Relay.

.

[Defender_300Tdi]

Thanks Paul, funnily enough I brought a switch from you off ebay the other day, well on10th of November! At least I think it was you, the one with the modified latching part. Its a small world huh?

Cheers for the advice above I will look into contacting Martin. I have purchased all the bits and pieces now from VWP including the timer relay and heavy relay. So now its just a case of putting it all together.

Regards

Rob

[PaulMc]

Thanks Paul, funnily enough I brought a switch from you off ebay the other day, well on10th of November! At least I think it was you, the one with the modified latching part. Its a small world huh?

Cheers for the advice above I will look into contacting Martin. I have purchased all the bits and pieces now from VWP including the timer relay and heavy relay. So now its just a case of putting it all together.

Regards

Rob

That was me, a small world indeed. You appear to have upgraded from a 200Tdi to a 300Tdi

Is that switch going to be of any use to you?

I intended for it to be used to switch the 70A Relay directly, as not everyone likes to have functions taken over for them by Timers, BCUs, BeCMs, etc... - they like to have control

If you wanted to use the Live-switching circuit element of the Switch I sold you, with the non-latching action of YUG000460LNF, so that it can be used with the Timer Relay, then it's an easy job to swap the two halves of the switches.

I've pinched these pictures from Del (50) on the D2 Boys Club forum, which show what I'm talking about -

. .

I'm sure he won't mind.

.

[Defender_300Tdi]

Hi Paul

Sorry to bring this post back from the dead, but could you please tell me if Pin 2 on the switch is the Dash Illumination feed?

Regards

Rob

[PaulMc]

Hi Paul

Sorry to bring this post back from the dead, but could you please tell me if Pin 2 on the switch is the Dash Illumination feed?

Regards

Rob

Hi Rob,

The latching, live-switching HFS switch I sold you, is wired as follows -

• Terminal 1 - Fused Live IN
  
• Terminal 2 - Dash Illumination
  
• Terminal 3 - Not Used
  
• Terminal 4 - Switched Live OUT (to Relay)
  
• Terminal 5 - Earth
  

.

[Defender_300Tdi]

HI Paul

I will building the wiring loom and will be modding the switch as per the thread from Martin further up the page.

On that basis do I need a different switch? Or is the one you sent me suitable? I have a feeling I need the non latching Defender HFS switch (YUG000460LNF) and then carry on the mod to the switch as per your instructions on the LRO thread.

Sorry as always for the silly questions.

Regards

Rob

[PaulMc]

HI Paul

I will building the wiring loom and will be modding the switch as per the thread from Martin further up the page.

On that basis do I need a different switch? Or is the one you sent me suitable? I have a feeling I need the non latching Defender HFS switch (YUG000460LNF) and then carry on the mod to the switch as per your instructions on the LRO thread.

Sorry as always for the silly questions.

Regards

Rob

Hi Rob,

The latching switch I sold you isn't suitable for use with Martin's circuit, using the VWP latching relay.

You need the standard non-latching switch, modified internally (as shown here - http://www.lro.com/f...=678736#p678736) to make it a momentary 'Live' switch, rather than the momentary 'Earth' switch it is as standard.

There are no silly questions, I'm always happy to help

Regards,

Paul.

.

[Defender_300Tdi]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for confirming that.

I have sent you a PM.

Regards

Rob

[Stone]

First post and Im a Swede so bare with me

Im going to install my new 2012 doors to my 2002 defender 130.

Can I build a loom as above to td5 as well?

As I took dash apart im going to connect heated window as well, Can I use the same sulution as above on td5 ?

Can I also use this part for heated mirrors? 10 minutes sounds good but I guess that i cant use the same cable?

Thanks for a good forum, helped me out a lot

[western]

Hi & Welcome to LR4x4.com,

standard fit heated rear screen & rear wash/wipe are a extra loom if you have rear wash/wipe already, the rear screen wiring should be pre-fitted.

if you need to make a new loom Please use the correct rated wire & fuses, this should help http://www.autosparks.co.uk/index.php?content_page=42

same goes for the new wiring for the doors, no reason why you cannpt build a new loom for each side,

heated mirrors were never a LR option, I have a set similar to these http://www.mudstuff.co.uk/defender-heated-mirror-elements.html

2002 onwards wiring diagrams http://www.landroverweb.com/Pdf-files/Defender%20MY2002%20Wiring%20Diagram.pdf