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Garage Electrics tech


Astro_Al

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I built a little TC 10kv primary, 200kv sec 1kva or so in the early 90's which was fairly cool. Something closer to the 1Mv mark would be cooler ;)

Used a DIY 0.1uF glass plate capacitor - which made worrying creaking sounds! (They have a bit of a rep for exploding)

If someone could explain this to me very slowly, I might just understand it! :rolleyes::D

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I don't want to weeeee on anyones fire. BUT, i farmer fried has just had the YEB (contractor) install single phase to his farm, he had nothing to start with. Cost was in the region of £45K. Mainly due to a 1 mile dig down the road to get onto his land. He did his own digging on his land, placed the trunking from his boudary to accept the cable. and still cost £45K. :o:o:o:angry:

Maybe going from single to 3 phases they can run the extra cable in to the existing trunking..... :lol:

Interesting to see what happens.

Oz

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Gulp...

To be fair, I don't think (hope) it's a similar case, sounds a bit more work than mine, but I am kinda nervous. Worst case scenario I'll just get a separate single phase supply of the most amps I can lay my hands on and call it good.

Al. :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ok, small update and some more advice needed.

I've sent off my application / location plans etc. Looks like they'll come round for a quote in a week or so.

I had to list my expected usage etc - apparently motors are a big issue and can affect other local users. I didn't know anything about how the motors start, and now I need to let them know. So... can anyone tell me what kind of start the following tools would have?

SIP single phase 3HP (2.2kW) belt driven compressor - I can't find trhe starter info in any descriptions.

Colchester Bantam lathe with 3 phase motor.

Apparently the options are 'star delta' and 'direct online' - which is all Greek to me - any pointers as to what that lot means?

Cheers guys, Al.

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Hmmm. Furry Muff then.

Little joberoonie for you John - when you break into my garage later (today?) - have a butchers at the compressor (far RHS wall) - jot down the phone number in big orange letters on the side for me?

I guess if they don't know, no-one will.

Not sure what to do about the lathe. To be honest I can't figure out why it is so critical for the leccy guys to have all the data - does this mean I'm not able to buy bigger / different type motors in te future?!? Weird.

I've been looking at red plugs ('CEE' or whatever you want to call them) - 16A @ 415V for about a tenner, 32A @ 415V at about 30 quid - seems not too bad. More amps than that starts getting painful, but those should do!

Anyone know what thickness cable / type of cable is good? I'm currently lost in cable on the RS website.

Cheers. Al. I'll get there... :rolleyes:

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Well for starters don't buy it from RS unles you're desperate, it's bound to be half price anywhere else. And no I don't know anywhere that sells 3-phase cable, last installation I saw they used individual cables for each phase.

Remember 16A @ 415V is twice the power of 16A @ 230V, if it's three phase then it's six times the power. Quite what you could fit into your workshop that would consume more than 20kW I'm not sure :blink: but I'd hate to see your leccy bill if you found something that does.

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Thanks John. Is there any way of knowing which is most likely? I mean, do they always use one type or another on stuff like compressors?

How can I tell by looking which it is? :huh:

Al.

The compressor will be DOL as it is single phase.

If the compressor was star-delta it would start at a lower speed for a time delay before changing via contactors to delta (higher speed - lower current but motor will not start easily in delta mode)

I would suggest using a 32A SPN MK Commando Blue plugs and sockets for anything single phase (230v) over 3kW (upto 7kW), under 3kW use the 16A version.

I would buy all kit from a electrical wholesaler such as Newey & Eyre, just be cheeky and ask for a discount.

Personally I wouldn't bother with a three phase for one appliance if you have already bought a converter/inverter thing.

I would expect you could have ignored the motors bit on the application form as they only really want to know about really large motors (3 phase 400v with large starting currents like over 100A), I've never filled that part in for supplies even in excess of 2MVA. simple rule, if you can move the motor without a fork lift then for the electricty supply application ignore it!

One thing to bear in mind is all new wiring and installation must be tested in accordance with BS7671, ideally installed and tested by a NICEIC contractor, all work must comply to BS7671 (and be installed in accordance with the Electricty at Work Regulations), the installation should also be tested and inspected every 5 years (or less depending on the installation).

If are unsure get a NICEIC contractor to sort it for you.

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Hello wormhole - thanks for the input. I have the guy coming on Friday to give me some quotes etc.

Personally I wouldn't bother with a three phase for one appliance if you have already bought a converter/inverter thing.

Understood, but the reason I only have 1 3-phase tool is that I don't have 3-phase! If I got it, that would probably change... ;)

I don't have an inverter or anything for it yet (the lathe arrives this Saturday).

>"I would expect you could have ignored the motors bit on the application form as they only really want to know about really large motors"

Well, i thought that'd be the case too, but the really wanted to know (maybe just to eliminate them as being 'important').

>"...installation must be tested in accordance with BS7671, ideally installed and tested by a NICEIC contractor... ...the installation should also be tested and inspected every 5 years..."

Is this true even for private use? It's just my garage.

Cheers, Al.

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Well, we met.

The supply runs right along the edge of the carpack which my garage is in. B)

I'm waiting for a formal invoice, but he reckons 800 quid as a ballpark figure. So I'm going ahead with it.

I need to dig an 18 inch deep trench across the carpark (say 15 metres), chuck in some kind of conduit or pipe (4" apparently i can get it from Jewsons - anyone know what it's called???), and bob's my uncle!

I think I get 100A at 415V as a minimum, maybe more if I decide i need it, but that should suffice for now ;) Until the flux capaitor is up and running.

So I'll throw in a ring of blues for 240V, a ring of reds for 415V, and switch the current 'normal' mains sockets over to the new supply, along with the lights.

Is it really that hard - presumably it's like wiring a plug, only more/bigger, right? In which case, can I not just do it myself? (Had to ask)...

Cheers, Al. :)

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Al, No, it's not that hard, and your ability to do it is not in question, it is the fact that you don't have the right bit of paper to say you can do it that is the problem! :P

If you can find a tame sparky, they just need to certify that it has been done correctly and safely, but that involves having all the right regulations met. If it was me, I would get hold of some wire in the old colours and claim it was all done before the new regs came into place... ;)

Mark

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Well, we met.

The supply runs right along the edge of the carpack which my garage is in. B)

I'm waiting for a formal invoice, but he reckons 800 quid as a ballpark figure. So I'm going ahead with it.

I need to dig an 18 inch deep trench across the carpark (say 15 metres), chuck in some kind of conduit or pipe (4" apparently i can get it from Jewsons - anyone know what it's called???), and bob's my uncle!

I think I get 100A at 415V as a minimum, maybe more if I decide i need it, but that should suffice for now ;) Until the flux capaitor is up and running.

So I'll throw in a ring of blues for 240V, a ring of reds for 415V, and switch the current 'normal' mains sockets over to the new supply, along with the lights.

Is it really that hard - presumably it's like wiring a plug, only more/bigger, right? In which case, can I not just do it myself? (Had to ask)...

Cheers, Al. :)

As you say its all quite simple, I would not do a ring of red sockets, use a radial circuit with two or three sockets on.

The rules are less strict if its your garage, however a domestic property falls under building regs - part P so should be done or tested/inspected by a qualified sparky, however if you don't tell building control who will know (except for if your local building control officer is a LR nut :lol: )

If you are doing it yourself with a three phase distribution board remember to get either a 100A MCCB incomer or fuses because under the new supply regulations you cannot use on the supply fuses to protect your installation - don't just get the distribution board with auto switch disconnector as normally the supply authority won't connect your supply.

Also if you have a quote direct from the supply authority remember you need to organise a meter from your energy supplier

The duct is standard from Jewsons - I'll find out the type in the morning, also you need a yellow warning tape above the cable printed 'warning electricty cable below', I expect you can also get this from Jewsons

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Thanks guys.

Wormhole - why 'radial' and not a ring - its gonna need lots more wire? What if 2/3 plugs isn't enough (why bother unplugging/replugging-in stuff, even if it's not all in use at the same time?). If I'm only using one (or max 2) 3 phase tools at once - isn't a 'ring' ok? (It's virtually only ever working as a single-tool supply anyway).

The property is not domestic, but it is not comercially rented out either (not this bit anyway), so I have no idea of which regs apply, never mind... :ph34r:;) B)

The supply company is also putting in the meter / cable - this is all included in that quote, it's all the same company.

>"If you are doing it yourself with a three phase distribution board remember to get either a 100A MCCB incomer or fuses because under the new supply regulations you cannot use on the supply fuses to protect your installation - don't just get the distribution board with auto switch disconnector as normally the supply authority won't connect your supply."

Sorry mate, I'm thicker than pig-carp when it comes to this stuff. "100A MCCB incomer" - WTF??? I know I get 100A at 415V supply - this is the suppliers fuse, which I guess is what you're telling me not to rely on? Ok, I planned on the usual RCD / fuse / tripswitch stuff anyway. Then some kind of single phase thingymajig off the three phase (???). Jeez I need a picture in brightly coloured crayons of which boxes to get and how to hook them up... Anyone got a web link or anything? What do I need to tap off the single phase from the 3 phase?

Is there anyone out there I can email about all this to bash through some details for a mains supply dumbass?

>"The duct is standard from Jewsons - I'll find out the type in the morning"

Thanks, I'd appreciate it.

John - I could use that tape if it says something relevant...???

Al. :blink:

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Thanks guys.

Wormhole - why 'radial' and not a ring - its gonna need lots more wire? What if 2/3 plugs isn't enough (why bother unplugging/replugging-in stuff, even if it's not all in use at the same time?). If I'm only using one (or max 2) 3 phase tools at once - isn't a 'ring' ok? (It's virtually only ever working as a single-tool supply anyway).

A radial circuit is shown here http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.3.3.htm I've never seen three phase sockets in a ring, and I expect it wouldn't comply with the wiring regulations, you can put 4 or 5 sockets on a radial (actually you can put as many as you want however it seems pointless putting too many on) as you have only one three phase tool then just use two or three. The 16A single phase blue sockets should also not be on a ring, I suggest two radial circuits with approx 4 sockets on would be best.

>"If you are doing it yourself with a three phase distribution board remember to get either a 100A MCCB incomer or fuses because under the new supply regulations you cannot use on the supply fuses to protect your installation - don't just get the distribution board with auto switch disconnector as normally the supply authority won't connect your supply."

Sorry mate, I'm thicker than pig-carp when it comes to this stuff. "100A MCCB incomer" - WTF??? I know I get 100A at 415V supply - this is the suppliers fuse, which I guess is what you're telling me not to rely on? Ok, I planned on the usual RCD / fuse / tripswitch stuff anyway. Then some kind of single phase thingymajig off the three phase (???). Jeez I need a picture in brightly coloured crayons of which boxes to get and how to hook them up... Anyone got a web link or anything? What do I need to tap off the single phase from the 3 phase?

MCCB - Moulded Case Circuit Breaker - this looks like a large isolator on the board, it acts like fuses or a large MCB so you can reset it. You need this because if you overload your supply the distribution company would have to come and replace your fuses, so now they say that their fuses in your cut-out (next to your meter) protect their cable, you need either fuses or a MCCB to protect your installation.

I'll see if I can get some pictures - 1000 words and all that...

MCB - Miniture Circuit Breaker - like standard domestic trip switches, used for outgoing ways on three phase distribution board, avaliable in three and single phase versions.

Is there anyone out there I can email about all this to bash through some details for a mains supply dumbass?

>"The duct is standard from Jewsons - I'll find out the type in the morning"

I'm waiting for YEDL to call back with the duct type, otherwise I'll have to dig through all our old quotations.

Good Luck

Matt

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Al,

just get three phase put in- it'll be worth it in the end- only costs £800 or so to get installed and you'll have enough power for anything then.

i am quotation GOD.

Well, we met.

The supply runs right along the edge of the carpack which my garage is in. B)

I'm waiting for a formal invoice, but he reckons 800 quid as a ballpark figure. So I'm going ahead with it.

I need to dig an 18 inch deep trench across the carpark (say 15 metres), chuck in some kind of conduit or pipe (4" apparently i can get it from Jewsons - anyone know what it's called???), and bob's my uncle!

p.s. good job chap- you now have a proper garage and all your tools will miraculously be a lot cheaper!

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I'm waiting for YEDL to call back with the duct type, otherwise I'll have to dig through all our old quotations.

I spoke to YEDL today, the duct is easy enough Black Electricty Duct, the part no is EATS 12-24 however aparently just Black Electricty Duct does it!

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Thanks a lot wormhole - much appreciated. I'll get some ordered up.

Booked my trip back to the UK for this weekend and a mini digger to make a mess of the car park. B)

Pugwash - the voice of reason! Lucky guess I suppose... :P

Yeah cheap tools rock - now I can start thinking about that CNC plasma project...

Cheers guys. Al.

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Yeah cheap tools rock - now I can start thinking about that CNC plasma project...
Never mind CNC Plasma, BUILD THE F***ING VEHICLE! :rolleyes:

At this rate you'll have no room left in the workshop to actually build anything and will end up with the world's most over-engineered pushbike...

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Meh... It's nice to have something to tinker away on for those moments when throwing an angry bag of spanners at the project just isn't satisfaction enough...

Besides - I'm on schedule, how is yours coming on John... :P:ph34r:

Did you manage to get that warning tape for me John, or shall I get some with the conduit?

Al.

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QUICK HELP NEEDED:

If anyone knows where I can get some 'WARNING: ELECTRIC CABLE UNDER' tape to put on my conduit in the Winchester area tomorrow (Saturday) morning please post up ASAP.

I can't find any, and I only have a day to get it finished.

Thanks for any tips, Al.

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