possible auto box

[trojan]

hello everybody ,

i posted this question in the defender forum but i think i'm gonna try hear .

question is i'm gonna have to change the gearbox on my 90 pretty soon ( lt77 ) , and i've been thinking about an auto box , problem is i don't know much about them and i need some advice .

what i want to know is , is it a good idea ? and will i need to alter my chassis mounts as it's a new galvernised one and i don't want to cut it .

also , how do they perform offroad ?. ie , will i still have engine braking ? i've just started offroading and i'm no expert .

all advice welcome , gearbox and offroad .

cheers ....

[bishbosh]

You will get two very different sets of replies to this - either gushing praise for the auto box or the opposite.

The pros -

Infinite control for those moments when you are trying to ease over an obstacle.

No worrying about what gear to climb the hill in - just point and shoot.

Much gentler on the drivetrain - offers a bit of extra protection to the Cadbury's axle components.

The cons -

Significantly reduced engine braking, but if you get an experienced off roader to show you how, braking on decents is allowed .

The box needs good cooling, but with a little thought can be easily organised.

Increased fuel consumption.

I personally love auto and can live with the engine braking issue. The control you get in all other situations (without the smell of a burning clutch ) is fantastic.

As for gearbox mounts - I think (not sure about 90's) that the gearbox mounts are bolt on so the worst case would be drilling new holes for the autobox mounts if they aren't there already. I am sure a grownup will be along to correct me on this point .

If you need a new gearbox then I'd go for it. I even have a pedal box for sale that would be right up your street....

[robhybrid]

If you use your vehicle mainly off road I would highly recomend going Auto.

If you use it on the road much you will notice some power loss compared to the manual.

That could be a worthwhile compramise for a more lazy drive though.

I used my original transfer box mounting for the one side of the gearbox and modified the disco auto box mounting on the other side (welded on a braced plate and moved the mounting hole 2").

By doing this my prop shafts were kept original.

I did however end up moving the engine forward quite a distance (I cant remember for sure 5") compared to short bell housing lt77.

A mate of mine has done a very similar conversion with his 200 tdi now recently and has used the 200 tdi discovery radiator hoses.

[simonr]

I have a ZF 4 sp auto in a V8 90 - and love it on and off road!

It uses the same gearbox & engine mounts as the original.

Si

[trojan]

cheers people ,

i'm liking the sound off the auto box conversion but i don't want to alter my chassis , i need to do a bit more research me thinks !!!

bye the way , it's a disco 200tdi thats fitted in it now , did it meself B) . i'm not new to landrovers but i'm new to offroading and loving it . totally amazed at what it will do , i reached my limit long before my motor did !! . the problem is one off the blokes we went with is a bit of a idiot and was putting me and my mate right off . suprised he did'nt kill someone !!

anyway , any more advise would be welcome before i ring ashcroft and order a lt77 and be done with it .

[FridgeFreezer]

Just to throw a spanner in - I've driven manual & auto and would stick with the LT77 (or upgrade to R380).

Autos are good to a point, yes they make hill climbs easier and a lot of driving "lazier" but personally this is not really enough of a plus to weigh up the niggles:

- Delay for the box to decide what to do after you move the lever

- No direct relation between what the engine is doing and what the wheels are doing

- You can't cycle forward/reverse to rock the vehicle anywhere near as quickly as a manual, and a friend blew a 4HP22 this way.

- With a TDi sometimes it helps to build the revs to bring the turbo in before dumping the clutch, obviously you can't really do this in an auto.

- Autos don't know what's coming, so can often find you in the wrong gear

- Autos may be gentler to the drivetrain but they place extra loads on cooling, and indirectly on the engine as they sap power.

- If an Auto leaks oil, it loses drive. Game over. And it will not be happy if you fill it with something other than the correct oil. Manuals will be much more tolerant, even if all the oil falls out it will get you home.

- Unless you have an oil cooler on the LT77 there are no coolers/hoses to get damaged in the first place.

- If you knacker a cog in a manual you have four others to choose from.

- Sometimes a clutch is just a very handy thing

You'll notice I didn't cite the usual thing about reduced engine braking, I've never actually found this a problem as locking the box into 1st low seems to work fine. I seem to recall LR force the torque-convertor to lock up early when you do this but perhaps I'm just imagining it

Check out Andy's TDi Auto conversion, he was very pleased with it AFAIK but the 300TDi was tweaked a bit

My runabout Rangie is Auto and it's very relaxing, but I'd prefer to have a manual for when I'm towing. My dad offroads a 3.5 Auto RR and that is great for him as he likes the point-and-shoot simplicity, but then he just does play days with it and as long as he's having fun doesn't really care.

From your point of view it sounds like you wouldn't want to do any major alterations to the vehicle and especially the chassis, if it was my money I'd be asking that nice Mr Ashcroft for a shiny new LT77 or R380 and bolting it in place of the old one.

For a while manual was the only thing to have off-road, recently the world and his dog have been going Auto but really it's swings and roundabouts.

Edited to add: At least you can spot the dangerous muppets, that's a good start! Best advice is to join a good local club who *should* be able to show you how to do things properly. The Shires have LANTRA trained a handful of committee / marshals (and we're training more) for this very reason. (plug plug )

[white90]

Agreeing with John

Auto does appear to be the new black

I like and would only have a a manual for my vehicle being used off road.

plus you'd need to locate some hard to find items to convert yours. the engine backplate for a 200TDI is an item that is not readily available

so you could end up spending lots more than you expect to.

[GBMUD]

I looked into an auto conversion for mine a few years ago. I came to the conclusion that the best way was to buy a written-off 200Tdi auto Disco and nick all the bits I would need before selling the rest. As White90 says, you need the special engine backplate for a 200Tdi auto. The problem is that Bishbosh bought this years 200Tdi/auto write-off, they are rare. You might consider a complete change of engine and transmission from a 300Tdi - just for ease and cheapness.

Chris

[simonr]

Ah...Didn't realise you had a 200 tdi

The 200 doesn't need an auto - it's a bloody good engine to start with. I'd err towards a new manual on that.

I don't think auto & LR Diesel mix terribly well without tweaking the engine some. I've driven a 300tdi auto disco - and thought the lack of acceleration was dangerous!

Si

[Mark]

Moved to the Int forum, as it will benefit from a wider audience. A bit OT for Tools and Fab too...

Personally I would stick with the manual with a 200TDI for reasons already stated. I have also been known to drive a 300TDI disco, and found it utterly underwhelming. The V8 will benefit more from the auto as it has more power to spare, and dosen't have the same engine braking charactersistcs as the deisel.

Cheers

Mark

[BogMonster]

Agreeing with John

Auto does appear to be the new black

I like and would only have a a manual for my vehicle being used off road.

plus you'd need to locate some hard to find items to convert yours. the engine backplate for a 200TDI is an item that is not readily available

so you could end up spending lots more than you expect to.

Me too, Tdi engine - has to be manual every time regardless of on or off road. I don't like any auto's offroad, they are good for control in some situations but annoying in many others and on balance I prefer a manual for what I do, also I have driven a few and owned two, and without exception the gearchanges in low range have been savage if you have any amount of throttle which I found really annoying.

On road - and behind a V8 - auto every time....

Which is why I have one of each

[dollythelw]

it may be the new black but next season taupe will be the next burgandy

just to be pendantic I went back to manual after an auto flirtation

[Paul Humphreys]

I have a 110 fitted with a 200 TDi and a 3 speed auto. Its slow compared to a manual. But I love it off road and green laning. But mine was fitted when new, it uses a conversion plate. As everyone has said “its each to their own”. But in your case I would stick with the manual box. As getting an auto to fit to a 200tdi is hard to find.

Paul

[will_warne]

OK, here's my view. I use an autobox behind a 2.8 TGV and I'm very happy with it both off road and on although I will be tuning it to give a bit more power. One of the main reasons for going this route was strength; R380s don't live long with lots of torque and big tyres. Engine braking is not an issue as I've got an underdrive. If you pop that in you'll have better control than a manual with underdrive as the torque converter cushioning effect helps stop the wheels locking up. I've also driven a well tuned 200tdi auto discovery and I liked it. In standard tune they're horrible!

For you, though, I'd seriously think about whether its the right thing. To get my auto to work the way I wanted it I spent a very, very large amount of money. You've also got the problem that 200tdi backplates are soooooooooooooooooooo rare it may take you 6 - 12 months to find one. There's also the conversion itself. Its pretty involved if you want to get a good end result and it requires a lot of patience and thought. The only good news is that the autobox mounts onto the gearbox crossmember with is removable. However, you will need to move the engine forward meaning you'll have to cut off the mounts.

FF, I agree with a lot of the point you mentioned about the down sides of autoboxes, however, a lot of them can be improved through careful thought and I'd totally disagree about power build up on an auto. If I need to build up power on mine I hold the brake pedal down with my left foot while applying plenty of throttle with my right foot and then release the brake pedal. It is far more effective than the 'hold the hand brake on and slip the clutch to get the turbo spinning' method with manual boxes. I do agree that sometimes the box can do silly things off road but it just takes an adjustment in driving style. I've found a VERY tight kick down cable set on the nearest position to the FIP works nicely as it gives a nice, quick, change up nice and early.

[dollythelw]

R380s don't live long with lots of torque and big tyres.

eh? just how big are your tyres Will?

[trojan]

OK, here's my view. I use an autobox behind a 2.8 TGV and I'm very happy with it both off road and on although I will be tuning it to give a bit more power. One of the main reasons for going this route was strength; R380s don't live long with lots of torque and big tyres. Engine braking is not an issue as I've got an underdrive. If you pop that in you'll have better control than a manual with underdrive as the torque converter cushioning effect helps stop the wheels locking up. I've also driven a well tuned 200tdi auto discovery and I liked it. In standard tune they're horrible!

For you, though, I'd seriously think about whether its the right thing. To get my auto to work the way I wanted it I spent a very, very large amount of money. You've also got the problem that 200tdi backplates are soooooooooooooooooooo rare it may take you 6 - 12 months to find one. There's also the conversion itself. Its pretty involved if you want to get a good end result and it requires a lot of patience and thought. The only good news is that the autobox mounts onto the gearbox crossmember with is removable. However, you will need to move the engine forward meaning you'll have to cut off the mounts.

FF, I agree with a lot of the point you mentioned about the down sides of autoboxes, however, a lot of them can be improved through careful thought and I'd totally disagree about power build up on an auto. If I need to build up power on mine I hold the brake pedal down with my left foot while applying plenty of throttle with my right foot and then release the brake pedal. It is far more effective than the 'hold the hand brake on and slip the clutch to get the turbo spinning' method with manual boxes. I do agree that sometimes the box can do silly things off road but it just takes an adjustment in driving style. I've found a VERY tight kick down cable set on the nearest position to the FIP works nicely as it gives a nice, quick, change up nice and early.

thats wierd , i went to bed last night thinking this was a good idea now look whats happened i've got up this morning and now i'm thinking i should stay manuel

still , it's not urgent but it's gonna need doing so i think i'll bite the bullet and sort out an lt77 .

the ironic thing is , about 6 months ago i bought a cheep 200 disco with a blown head gasket and that was auto , fixed the gasket and doubled my money B) B) did'nt know they were rare though , (what a pratt )

as for the very , very , large sums off money , well , i'm already there . as i said in the other bit i'm not new to landrovers i 'm just new to offroading and green laning .

i've been building mine for the last year or so and it's cost a fortune

infact i got most of my inspiration from this forum , for example i've just rebuilt my front axle , ( new swivels and the like , i copied the run through from white 90 / or les henson (can't remember which)

and i swapped my transfer box to 1.22 from info on this forum .

even my 200tdi conversion was reshearched on here , thats why i came her about the auto box thing .

infact if you remember les henson / white 90 , i asked about you doing a run through about rebuilding an lt77 box for this very reason .

so as you can see , i don't mind getting in there and doing what's needed B) B) but i think i'll stay manuel for now .

could be a good idea to have a poll don't you think auto / manuel . anyone know how to do it ??

[HoSS]

So will an autobox go onto a V8 without moving the engine forward?

Which ZF box?

[Lara]

I use an auto and would NEVER go back to manual!!!!!!!!!! EVER

Use an eleccy one and you have an auto manual as well, so could not be better.

Lara.

[FridgeFreezer]

Are 300TDi Autos more common / cheaper then, 'cos I'm sure some Shires members who went on a LR Factory training course proved you could interchange 200TDi and 300TDi with only a couple of studs in the back of the block needing to be (re)moved.

[jules]

Funny reading

I run Auto 4.2 V8 in a 90 and love it

I do 50k a year in disco Td5 auto and do alot of towing and would never go back to a maual ever...I drive alot in London and round the M25

I have seen a RRC LSE converted to a 200tdi engine and a 300tdi auto box fitted to it and the owner was chuffed to nuts with it and the parts are prity much off the shelf for it... and good mpg

The auto plate was a little hard to find but otherwise a easy convertion and that was on a LSE which would be far more complex than a 90.

My 90 conversion and the 110 one I have done since for a mate didn't need any welding or cutting just replace the unboltable cross member for a auto on or latter type which does both... remember the extra cooler for the gear box..

all very easy

but as a rule Autos are for big and powerful engines the tdi is niether

[dollythelw]

I use an auto and would NEVER go back to manual!!!!!!!!!! EVER

Use an eleccy one and you have an auto manual as well, so could not be better.

Lara.

with an e lock torque convertor to give lock up on demand then the wish list would work for me (NAS Disco 4.4?)

"but as a rule Autos are for big and powerful engines the tdi is niether"

so why do they fit them to Rovers??

[jules]

oops! anti tdi comment didn't go un-noticed oh well...

[dollythelw]

[trojan]

oops! anti tdi comment didn't go un-noticed oh well...

don't you like tdi's then jules ,

if i'm honest i'd have a v8 if they did'nt use so much fuel .

the other reason is i'm new to this offroading lark and i don't like the idea off all that petrol under my arris . i'm allergic to fire , brings me out in hives !!!

[bill van snorkle]

Can't say I've ever driven an auto LandRover in anger offroad. But apart from my Landey I have two Isuzu Troopers, 1 manual and 1 auto ,and the comparison offroad is a bit of a mixed bag. Troopers have very limited to non existant suspension articulation but have a limited slip rear diff that can be induced to lock up tight by application of the foot brake. because of torque converter slip I can lock the diff with the auto, but doing the same with the manual will almost always stall the engine before the diff locks. When climbing wet,slippery hills I occasionally find that low in the auto is too low to maintain just enough momentum to keep going, but if I put the selector into

2nd or drive the trans will keep shifting up and down with savage gear changes that cause a loss of traction. With the manual version in such conditions I can simply put the gearbox in the highest gear that the engine will comfortably pull and make a smooth wheel spin free ascent.

Bill.