Lack of leg room for passengers behind front seats in Defender 110

[RutlandH2O]

This is my first post. Please be gentle. In 2001, I test drove a Defender 110 with my husband. All was well, until I sat behind the front passenger seat, while my husband drove the vehicle. The car salesman was sitting in the front passenger seat. I am only 5'6" tall and found I had to bend my knees and slant them to the right in order to feel comfortable in the back seat. I realised there was a metal strip on the floor about 6 or 7 inches high across the back of the front seats. There was no place to accommodate my feet (i.e., under the seats in front of me). It was a deal-breaker. This vehicle would have been very suitable for our farm (we raise Shire horses). However, we have several rather tall friends, and others of average height. There was no way they could sit comfortably behind the front seats. If this vehicle were used to accommodate small children on the daily school run, fair enough. My husband, who is 5'9", also found those seats challenging. My questions are these: What is that metal strip and can it be removed? Does it still exist in the more recent models? Are we (me and OH) alone in this assessment of the vehicle? I have wanted to ask these questions of people in the know for quite some time. Now that we are in the market for another Land Rover (I drive a 2001 Range Rover and my husband drives a 2002 Disco), and recently found this site, I thought I'd have a go. Thanks, in advance, for any enlightenment.

[Happyoldgit]

Welcome to LR4x4 .

I have a late model Puma 110 and although the seats are different, fold up and are mounted differently to earlier Defender models to all intents and purposes the legroom is similar, that said I cannot recall an adult complaining of being cramped in the Puma's I've had. Why not pop into a main dealer and try?

You have a PM re horses BTW

[tacr2man]

the lack of legroom in second row is a noted problem . it has been excacerbated by the better seats fitted in later version . the front edge of the footwell is not able to be moddified , however shifting the second row rearwards helps alleviate , as you dont have to try and bend your lower leg/foot in a Z shape . HTSH

[CwazyWabbit]

The metal strip is the back of the seat box, on the passenger side you would find the battery on the other side of this metal strip. Removing it would not be an option as the seat box would be weakened and you'd have your feet on the battery. That said I don't recall any complaints from adults in the back.

PS Welcome to LR4x4 We're friendly here

[simonr]

Any vehicle is a collection of compromises. Defenders have compromised on passanger leg room, gadgets and storage space - but they do give you exceptional capability off road as standard and a very long lasting vehicle. Any other 4x4 or other vehicle will have a different set of compromises - thus it may be that one of them is a better fit for your requirements.

For me, the capability and 3.5 Ton towing capacity (there are not many vehicles with 3.5 Ton tow capacity) are more important than the passanger leg room. After all, I never sit in the back - so I don't care! I have an 03 Plate Td5 Double Cab which is the best fit for my requirements of any vehicle so far.

In the mid 90's I came across a vehicle which had been modified for a disabled passanger to sit in the back. They had cut a section out of the front seat box allowing space for the persons toes (I think they had an artificial leg with no bend at the ankle). The battery was moved forward a bit and the whole thing looked very proper. Land Rover could easily have made this standard and it wouldn't be hard to add retrospectively.

Si

[gordonendersby]

My last 110station wagon had the folding bases removed from the second row seats and a new base made to move the seats back. Worked very well but you couldnt fold the seats. Not a problem for me as we only carried dogs or camping gear in the back.

It was just box section steel welded to form a box and bolted to the floor.

Thats the beauty of a proper land rover if it isnt quite what you want, modify it.

Gordon

[landroversforever]

I've not looked under a 110 in that much detail, but if there is any clearance the panel could be modified to give some toe room.

I know a 110 doesnt have much room, at 6'3" I don't fit without sitting sideways.

[RutlandH2O]

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful, supportive replies. My husband mentioned the possibility of moving the second row seats back a bit. I'm greedy when it comes to the ability of the vehicle to accommodate all manner of stuff: bales of hay and straw, feed sacks, dogs and their crates, the occasional sheep, to name a few. I see that the 110 Station Wagon can be fitted with bench seats or folding seats behind the second row of seats. Can the folding seats be removed without the need for back surgery if I move them myself (without the assistance of someone with muscle)? We are going to a dealer next week, so we'll have a go then.

[Happyoldgit]

The seat backs fold down and then the whole lot will then fold up close to the front seats leaving the whole of the rear cargo area free. Removing the rear seats entirely isn't a straightforward unlatch job like a lot of modern stuff as they are bolted in. Utility Station Wagons are 5 seaters and don't have the fold up forward facing seats or windows in the rear load area.

[Marks 110]

Can't pretend there's a lot of legroom for second row passengers but I've always managed and I'm 6'2", just make sure I stop every couple of hours on a long journey for a leg stretch. As said above its one of those compromises thats worth putting up with in my opinion.

Exmoor Trim manufacture a kit which allows the seat backs to positioned further back which allows a slightly more comfortable seating position although not sure if this can be used on newer vehicles.

[JeffR]

Can't pretend there's a lot of legroom for second row passengers but I've always managed and I'm 6'2", just make sure I stop every couple of hours on a long journey for a leg stretch. As said above its one of those compromises thats worth putting up with in my opinion.

Exmoor Trim manufacture a kit which allows the seat backs to positioned further back which allows a slightly more comfortable seating position although not sure if this can be used on newer vehicles.

Got those seats in the back of my 110, they make one hell of a difference, expensive though and I don't know if you can fit them to later models.

[ejparrott]

My welder mate did a grand job on another mates 110, page 11

[mickeyw]

Hello, and welcome to LR4x4.

The pre-Puma engined Defender 110 used to be available in 12 seater or 10 seater configuration.

The 12 seat layout was achieved 3 up front, 3 middle row, and 3 each side in the rear, so pretty cramped unless you're a child.

The 10 seat layout was 3 up front, 3 middle row and 2 each side in the rear. Crucially the second row seats, as well as being a much more comfortable shape were moved backward by a few inches, and this made a notable improvement to adult comfort.

My family have owned 2 110 Station Wagons that were the 10 seat layout (9 seats if you have a cubby box in the front).

The first was a 1998 300 Tdi, and the current one is a 2006 Td5 which is currently for sale, <shameless plug> details on this thread in the for sale section of this forum.

The Defender is certainly a very versatile vehicle and shruggs off most tasks asked of it with ease. My mother has been using hers for very similar tasks to yours since the car was new. And considering that it still looks very tidy.

I can't see the Freelander she has replaced it with managing quite so well. Queue protests from Freelander owners on here

I assume by your screen name that you're somewhere in the Rutland area, we are near Gatwick airport, so not exactly close. However if you fancied having a look we would make you very welcome

[western]

Can't pretend there's a lot of legroom for second row passengers but I've always managed and I'm 6'2", just make sure I stop every couple of hours on a long journey for a leg stretch. As said above its one of those compromises thats worth putting up with in my opinion. Exmoor Trim manufacture a kit which allows the seat backs to positioned further back which allows a slightly more comfortable seating position although not sure if this can be used on newer vehicles.

I have the Trakkers [pre exmoor-trim] hi-back rear seats with the extension kit as well in my 110, it makes the legroom better by moving the seat back 2 inches further rearwards & raises it by about 1 inch.newer/current 110SW have the 40/60 spilt rear seats, I'm not aware of a kit to move these rearwards from the existing position.

[Happyoldgit]

I'm not aware of a kit to move the split rear seats back on a Puma either, doing so would involve moving the floor mounted locking bars too.

[RutlandH2O]

Thanks, everyone, for your responses to my queries. Mickeyw, you are correct, we live in Rutland. Your offer is so kind. I think a visit to a dealer is the next important action on our parts. I'll let you know what we glean from the experience.

[mickeyw]

I have the Trakkers [pre exmoor-trim] hi-back rear seats with the extension kit as well in my 110, it makes the legroom better by moving the seat back 2 inches further rearwards & raises it by about 1 inch.newer/current 110SW have the 40/60 spilt rear seats, I'm not aware of a kit to move these rearwards from the existing position.

I think the kit referred to is only suitable for the 3 individual seats found in the 12 seat models.

[western]

I think the kit referred to is only suitable for the 3 individual seats found in the 12 seat models.

Yes it is, 12 seaters aren't made anymore IIRC.

[Disco DJ]

Yes it is, 12 seaters aren't made anymore IIRC.

I fitted me + 11 mates in my old 12 seater on a works night out. All fully grown males, no complaints at all, especially on the way back (all too pi55ed- except me driving of course!!)

Dave

[cackshifter]

_{There are one or two threads on here where ingenious people have fitted Renault Scenic seats in the back. I would guess that could be done to give more legroom, but the compromise might be on whether they fold up the way the standard ones do; I think that might be a problem with the Exmoor trim seats as well.}

[UdderlyOffroad]

_{There are one or two threads on here where ingenious people have fitted Renault Scenic seats in the back. I would guess that could be done to give more legroom, but the compromise might be on whether they fold up the way the standard ones do; I think that might be a problem with the Exmoor trim seats as well.}

This thread for instance:

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=44374&st=0&p=415422&fromsearch=1entry415422

(though it looks as if the pictures have disappeared)

They do indeed fold forward, and can easily be removed completely without any tools should you desire. They are in effect 3 separate seats and can be adjusted backwards and forwards too, hence you will gain rear legroom, but at the loss of 6-odd inches in the rear load area. The mounting of them is relatively simple to fabricate, just two bits of bar are required. You will need to get slightly cleverer with the seatbelt mount for the middle seat however.

I’ve yet to do this myself, and will post some dimensioned drawings as and when I complete it (so, on current progress, 6months!!). I’m guessing that’s probably a bit more for faffing around the OP wanted to do though, she was looking for an off-the-shelf solution?

[RutlandH2O]

This thread for instance:

http://forums.lr4x4....=1

(though it looks as if the pictures have disappeared)

They do indeed fold forward, and can easily be removed completely without any tools should you desire. They are in effect 3 separate seats and can be adjusted backwards and forwards too, hence you will gain rear legroom, but at the loss of 6-odd inches in the rear load area. The mounting of them is relatively simple to fabricate, just two bits of bar are required. You will need to get slightly cleverer with the seatbelt mount for the middle seat however.

I’ve yet to do this myself, and will post some dimensioned drawings as and when I complete it (so, on current progress, 6months!!). I’m guessing that’s probably a bit more for faffing around the OP wanted to do though, she was looking for an off-the-shelf solution?

My husband had a good idea, I think. The very back seats, which fold, but face forward with headrests like "real" seats, look like they have more leg room than the second row seats. If that's the case, we could put the little people in the second row and put the adults in the back. Would that work? What about access to those back seats...would an adult have to be a contortionist to climb into them?

[western]

My husband had a good idea, I think. The very back seats, which fold, but face forward with headrests like "real" seats, look like they have more leg room than the second row seats. If that's the case, we could put the little people in the second row and put the adults in the back. Would that work? What about access to those back seats...would an adult have to be a contortionist to climb into them?

no, easy to get in, through rearend door, no need to climb over the 2nd row seats,

[RutlandH2O]

no, easy to get in, through rearend door, no need to climb over the 2nd row seats,

Oooh, very interesting!! The future test drive is becoming more attractive everyday. Can't wait!

[Happyoldgit]

I take it you are looking for a new / newish vehicle? Reason for asking is that since 2007 the very rear seats in what ostensibly is the cargo / luggage area are different from earlier models. Post 2007 Defenders have forward facing seats in the back which do take up a good deal of space when in use but folded they sit on top of the wheel arch which leaves the space in between the arches free.

I bought a new 7 seater XS Puma 110 County Station Wagon [XS meaning it's the posh one with part leather heated seats, aircon, carpets etc] just after the new model came out in 2007 and in use found that on long journeys the rear seats were only suitable for children as both leg and headroom is somewhat limited. Of necessity the vehicle was fitted with the optional full width / height cargo guard which ends up being pretty close to the rear seats limiting legroom even further - ok the seats are still usable but your face is close to the guard, TBH I was not 100% happy with anyone traveling right in the back under those circumstances. Luggage space is limited when the rear seats are in use and to be honest they are not as easy to get in and out of as the old side facing seats I think some people may have in mind and that I've had in previous vehicles.

I currently have an XS Puma Utility Station Wagon which has 5 seats [no seats in the rear cargo area] and for me it's a much more practical vehicle.