Let the Oil Vs Grease Debate Continue

[white90]

Cheers Paul that's what I'll go with then.

[Les Henson]

The problem I see with doing this is if you get water into one swivel housing, you are in effect getting water into the whole axle assembly due to the seals being left out.

Les.

[Paul]

The problem I see with doing this is if you get water into one swivel housing, you are in effect getting water into the whole axle assembly due to the seals being left out.

Les.

Les, the seal between the swivel housing and the axle stays in place, it's just the oil from the swivel that's allowed to flood the hub via the stub axle, not the oil from the axle/diff assembly.

Paul

[Les Henson]

I see what you mean Paul - sorry. So water in the swivel housing could/would also migrate to the wheel bearings. While it's relatively easy to flush and re-fill a water contaminated swivel housing (I fill them with ordinary engine oil and go for a short drive), it's considerably more difficult to clean and re-grease the wheel bearings. On road there's always a bias towards the passenger side of the vehicle due to road camber, so Tony's comment about lubrication starvation may well be relevant to some degree. I personally think that seperate compartments of lubricant are a safer option.

Les.

[bill van snorkle]

I see what you mean Paul - sorry. So water in the swivel housing could/would also migrate to the wheel bearings. While it's relatively easy to flush and re-fill a water contaminated swivel housing (I fill them with ordinary engine oil and go for a short drive), it's considerably more difficult to clean and re-grease the wheel bearings. On road there's always a bias towards the passenger side of the vehicle due to road camber, so Tony's comment about lubrication starvation may well be relevant to some degree. I personally think that seperate compartments of lubricant are a safer option.

Les.

I haven't run inner axle swivel seals on my LandRovers for nigh on 20 years, and never, never has any component suffered from a lack of lubrication. Even if you were to drive on a 45 degree sideslope for 20 miles all the bearings would still be wet enough to stay lubed. Since discarding the inner front axle seals all those years ago I have had to contend with far fewer hub seal failures, even on the old single lip seals of series vehicles, because the hub and swivel housing can now breathe and not build up excess pressure and force oil out through the hub seal. Generally when there is a build up of pressure within a non vented,lubricated piece of machinary, the pressure attacks the largest rotary oil seal, which on Landy axle assemblies is the hub seals. Even my portal hubs share a common oil supply with the other front end components, and I have very few issues with hub seals.

Bill.

[nige90]

Whilst we're on the subject of swivel rebuilds, where's best to get the stuff from ?

Paddocks list a kit for £16 + Gordon but is the quality ok ?

[jjojjas]

Whilst we're on the subject of swivel rebuilds, where's best to get the stuff from ?

Paddocks list a kit for £16 + Gordon but is the quality ok ?

I got the stuff from paddocks and it was all fine. My rebuild is on the web page where you can see the quality old swivel I removed!

Hear its:

I used grease, but if I was off road in puddles all day long, I'd definately use oil.

Jas

[will_warne]

had grease went back to Oil

after stripping the N/S hub to fit Ashcroft CV's

I was surprised to fine next to no grease left in the swivel housing

it had all migrated to the diff through the seal(was brand new)

now I have just EP90 and check the levels regularly.

So for me it is EP

sod grease again

I had simerlar experiences to Tony however I'm thinking of going back to grease on the advice of Dave Ashcroft as I've had problems with tight spots forming on the CVs - they did some testing and IIRC Morris K7 performed best and gave superior lubrication to EP90. I've never tried it but I'll have to see how thin it is as I run oil lubricated hubs and I would want to keep that additional lubrication for the wheel bearings. What I may end up doing is using a 50/50 mix of grease and EP90. I think it was Pete Greaves who was doing this and found it worked well.

Water ingress isn't a problem as I change all the axle oil after every event so there's no time for water to linger and if there's any sign of ingress I'll replace the seals.

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

I think Tony’s question was ‘do I run the wheel bearings in grease or swivel oil’ …………. but we seemed to have digressed into the swivel oil / grease debate………….

Hmmmmmmm…………… it’s a tough debate …………. As Bill quite rightly says, most older LR’s always used the oil bath approach ……………. but then again, many manufacturers of passenger cars and truck over many years have always used grease ……..

When I rebuilt my front axle, I decided that it would go together just like the manufacturer (sort off) intended …………. The swivel is filled with EP90 and the wheel bearings run on High pressure Molybdenum disulphide grease (very good quality CV grease).

Over the years I have found Moly grease to be vastly more water resistant then straight lithium and also sticks like sh!t to blanket (much better than straight lithium). I suffer very little (if any) wheel bearing problems……….

My findings are purely empirical (but it works for me) ………… I guess we now need to input from an oil guru like Rick to qualify the above comments

Ian

[bill van snorkle]

I had simerlar experiences to Tony however I'm thinking of going back to grease on the advice of Dave Ashcroft as I've had problems with tight spots forming on the CVs -

I really don't get this part Will. Oil flows in and flows out of precision fitted components much better than any grease can, so how does using grease in place of lovely dripping wet oil prevent tight spots forming on CV joints ? Does this K7 grease have valve lapping paste as one of its key ingredients?

Just to add a bit more ballast to the oil team I'll suggest to anyone that cares to look at a bearing specification book and note the difference in load capacity of any bearings when lubed by oil or grease. The load rating is always appreciably higher when a bearing is lubricated in oil.

Bill.

[mmgemini]

I've just come across this post. Some interesting reading.

For once i take Land Rovers advice and use grease in my hubs. I've not had a problem.

Like Bill I have no oil seals inside my axles. That way the drive shaft splines and the hub flange splines have a better chance of getting lubricated.

If you are bothereda bout water getting into the hub. Fit the hub seal the warong way or if you can fit two. One the correct way and the other the wrong way. That way when you enter water with a hot hub the water doesn't get sucked in when the hub cools.

As for the swivels. I've gone back to oil.

mike

YES !! England is a free country. As long as you do as you are told.

[white90]

Will is quoting the recommendation for the New CV's they are now pre packed with Grease.

Mike can you clarify for the stoopid have you removed the stub axle seal /swivel-axle seals?

then run the entire axle on 1 supply of Oil like Bill does or have you greased the wheel bearings in the hubs then allowed the grease to have access to the axle oil supply by removing the above seals.

Ian can you add the spec of the grease you now use on your bearings please

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Ian can you add the spec of the grease you now use on your bearings please

I generally try to use this……………..

Castrol EP Pyroplex Black

Fuchs RENOLIT LXMO2 is also very good………….

But believe it or not ……….. I have also found chip as chips comma CV grease to also be very, very good …………….

Generally Castrol Pyroplex is my favorite …………. The last lot came from (IIRC, but I could be wrong) Big Wheels………………….. but last time round it was hard to come by & I ended up with the comma stuff which I expected to be plop …………. But was pleasantly surprised.

The Fuchs grease is not particularly cheap………………

I have used Moly grease for all applications for years ....................

Ian

[Paul]

As Mike mentioned above, another big benefit of letting the oil from your swivels or axles reach the wheel bearings, is that it will also lubricate the drive member splines. For many years now this has been an essential modification to disc brake rear Defenders (110s & 130s) here in Australia because they've all suffered terribly with the dry splines wearing out. Drum brake Defenders never suffered this problem because they come from the factory without a seal in the stub axle, thus allowing diff oil to lubricate the drive member splines.

Paul

[mmgemini]

Tony.

Yes I will.

When I bought my Defender I was told to keep the halfshaft outer splines lubricated. I was suprised to see how much rust there was in those splines the first time I serviced it after 6,000 miles. So I started to put some gear oil into the plastic end cap on each service.

When I serviced in the May after the Defender had come back from Africa I was astounded to find the right rear hub full of rust and the rust starting to get into the grease. I decided that this was because the container had had the sun on that side. The left rear hub was fine because the oil had mixed in with the grease. So I damaged to inner seal deliberately.

I worked at the Ford Main Dealer for a number of years on the twin wheel Transit. The Salisbury rear hubs are the same on the Transit. Well they were then. As the Defender. They always had grease when new but the oil came along the halfshaft and added lubrication.

I'm going off at a tangent here but please bear with me.

1979 to 81, I rallyed a Hillman Imp. I worked in a fleet garage at that time.

I was knocking out front hub bearings every rally. Really pitted they were, needing replacement every time. That was about 200 miles at the most.

One day the Wynnes rep came in to try to seel stuff. I mentioned my bearing problem. He went to his car and came back with some additive. Add a desert[sp]spoon of that to your grease and you will not have any more bearing problems. I did and I didn't.

I use the grease from my local motor factor. Granville I think. I also buy Wynns CHARGE and add a desert spoon full and stir it in. Not had any bearing problems.

I always use a paper gasket between the hub and the drive flange.

From a personal point. If I were competing and there was a chance of the c/v breaking. I'd use grease. Some Wynns maybe ???

mike

YES !! England is a free country. As long as you do as you are told.

[white90]

so

in easy to read/understand(3hrs sleep makes reading replies somewhat odd at times )

do you have stub axle seals/swivel ball seals?

or have you removed these two items?

or left one of these in situ.

have you greased the wheel bearings on assembly with an eye to oil mixing with this as seals are now removed

[mmgemini]

Tony.

Everything is still in place except the inner axle seals. Well there's still there but damaged.

As I don't compete. Well I did watch a challenge the othervweek and enjoyed it. I expect to service my Defender on hopefully do nothing to it in between.

ps. A different type of preparation but you might enjoy reading it.

http://www.landroveraddict.com/smf/index.php?topic=358612.0

mike

YES !! England is a free country. As long as you do as you are told.

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Tony,

On the fronts …………….. if the half shaft seal becomes damaged or is removed, then the swivel oil/grease tends to migrate to the diff leaving you with the possibility of dry CV’s ………………… however, like you, I would have expected the oil to migrate from the diff to the housing ……………but this doesn’t seem to happen.

Ian

[mmgemini]

I keep reading your post Ian.

Oh for a nice comfortable chair and a table that we could all sit round and discuss this.

I would have thought that you'd have to get the grease to melting point to be able to migrate to the diff. However in anything mechanical anything can and does happen.

What I do notice when I do my hubs, especially the fronts is the black oil that has, for a better description, contaminated the grease. I've not noticed it the other way round.

So if the grease migrates to the diff and lets the CV dry up, is that a case for grease in the CV's ?? Or should you check the CV oil more often.

mike FOAK

YES !! England is a free country. As long as you do as you are told.

[white90]

this thread is turning int o a lengthy bugger

I've had single shot grease migrate to the diff oil.

I'm going to go with Pauls suggestion

stub axle seals out swivel-axle seals in unless someone can convince me of another method

[bill van snorkle]

I keep reading your post Ian.

Oh for a nice comfortable chair and a table that we could all sit round and discuss this.

I would have thought that you'd have to get the grease to melting point to be able to migrate to the diff. However in anything mechanical anything can and does happen.

What I do notice when I do my hubs, especially the fronts is the black oil that has, for a better description, contaminated the grease. I've not noticed it the other way round.

So if the grease migrates to the diff and lets the CV dry up, is that a case for grease in the CV's ?? Or should you check the CV oil more often.

mike FOAK

YES !! England is a free country. As long as you do as you are told.

Oil seals are mainly one way, designed to keep oil in. The inner axle seal is their to keep oil in the differential housing. When pressure builds up inside the swivelhousing/hub assembly, if the hub seal doesn't leak oil/grease from the swivel housing will be pushed through the inner axle seal into the differential housing. For those that would like to use oil in everything whilst retaining seperate compartments there is a simple answer. Just drill and tap the swivel housing filler plugs and fit extended breather lines to them.

Bill.

[Diff]

I concur with Bill. I was reading the Defender manual the other day, and it notes that the swivel housings 'breath' via the oil seal in the end of the axle tube, and of course the axle has its own breather. This statement does imply that there is a possibility of oil/grease migration from the swivel to the axle case itself if the swivel gets warm. Similarly, if the axle case is suddenly cooled on entering water, and the breather is blocked or restricted, in theory, grease could be drawn into the axle case.

Regards,

Diff

[white90]

Diff

Definatley happened to me

I ran the CVs on grease (one shot)

when I took them out to fit new ones the N/S had next ro no grease left in it the diff oil however had turned a grey colour.

If I remove stub axle end seals to allow oil from the swivels to oil the wheel bearings any migration to the axle is easy to pick up on

by checking oil levels regularly, this will keep the CV grease(Ashcrofts ones are pre packed) in or near the CVs and swivel housings and hopefully keep the diff oil seperate.

[bill van snorkle]

Diff

Definatley happened to me

I ran the CVs on grease (one shot)

when I took them out to fit new ones the N/S had next ro no grease left in it the diff oil however had turned a grey colour.

If I remove stub axle end seals to allow oil from the swivels to oil the wheel bearings any migration to the axle is easy to pick up on

by checking oil levels regularly, this will keep the CV grease(Ashcrofts ones are pre packed) in or near the CVs and swivel housings and hopefully keep the diff oil seperate.

Checking oil levels regularly will only keep the lubricants at their correct level, but not prevent oil/grease migration from the swivel housing to the differential housing.Unless you periodically drain the diff housing and replenish with fresh oil you will over time have gradually replaced the diff oil with mostly CV joint grease if occasionally you merely remove the level plug to drain off excess oil.

Bill.

[JimAttrill]

whatabout putting a grease nipple and filling the entire cavity with grease? just wondering out loud.

(IMLO oil is the proper way unless you've got leaky swivels)

The grease nipple idea is fine so long as you put enough grease in there. We had a Classic RR in the workshop with a completely stuffed CV joint, no oil or grease in there at all .... until we saw a grease nipple with about 10cc of grease on it. That grease just sat there doing nothing.

I still use oil, but I have the old swivel housings with three holes, the filler, level and drain plugs. I do think my oil is migrating to the diff as the diff is always overfull when I check it.