Improved comfort, defender?

[sparg]

Apologies for cross-posting, I'm casting across several forums.

Sorry, I've searched, can't seem to find much on road comfort (perhaps unsurprisingly!).

My problem:

An '03 defender 110 double cab p/up, TD5, 100K on clock, almost all road use (it's not even scratched!). I've run it for the last 24K round France a couple of times, bit of Spain, used every day for work (100mile round trip)

In many ways, quite civilised compared to may last (90 with +2", terrafirma prosports, straightthrough exhaust, 33" wheels - knicked off the Drive.) BUT...

It does roll more (it's a pre antiroll bar model), and though the 110 doesn't suffer 'nodding dog' syndrome like the 90, it's on-road behaviour ought to be improvable. It's on standard tyre size, General Grabbers (32psi front, 35 rear), good turn in, someone's put poly bushes in rear trailing arms (whatever you call 'em) but not everywhere else (the rest of the set are in a box in the garage). Fairly modest procomp replacement dampers just before I got it

Mostly, though, I 'm dissatisfied with: a)suspension - bumpy corners, the front axle bounces a few times, sometimes the vehicle changes direction - on certain interesting potholes, at 50mph, the back end can hop slightly sidewise, pointing me elsewhere than originally intended by a few degrees.

Also, it does 'fall down' every pothole, bouncing and thumping along.

I know, it's a defender... but my question is: can defender suspension really not be improved upon?

Is it underdamped, or overdamped? - ride comfort on undulating but undamaged roads is fine. But potholes make the axle bounce a few times, which would sound like the axle was underdamped. But if the shocks were firmer, the springs would tend to be even less adaptive to the contour of bumpy roads.

I'm wondering whether, for my use (usually lightly laden, very rarely towing), I might be better with actually softer springs and see if I can get AR bars retrofitted to counteract roll? - or might progressive springs be a decent route?

I'm prepared to take a while investigating this, as it's non-urgent, but it seems to me that the standard criticisms of defenders' ride are justified. The 'one size fits all' agricultural suspension pays little more than lip service to comfort, but could it actually be tailored to suit?

Lastly, of course - even if it could, I wonder to what extent it could be made adjustable - I know that's what air suspension is supposed to be about, but I have a car with that, and I'm not a big fan.

[Gazzar]

Oh, fit leaf springs! You'll appreciate the coils afterward!

[Retroanaconda]

Yours is a commercial model, so it will have hard suspension. It may well be worth fitting softer standard suspension to give it a bit more give. Anti-roll bars were fitted from the 80s, but not to all models, so as long as yours has the brackets on axle and chassis then go ahead and fit one.

Personally I'd change all the bushes for new genuine Land Rover (Metalastik) ones and then fit either standard Land Rover shocks, or new ones from a more reputable brand than Pro-Comp, such as Billstein, Koni etc.

It may be worth checking your steering pre-load on the front swivel hubs too, if the steering is still jumping about on hitting potholes after the bushes are changed.

[sparg]

Oh, fit leaf springs! You'll appreciate the coils afterward!

right, I might try that... has anyone experience of fitting leaf springs to a TD5?

[sparg]

Yours is a commercial model, so it will have hard suspension. It may well be worth fitting softer standard suspension to give it a bit more give. Anti-roll bars were fitted from the 80s, but not to all models, so as long as yours has the brackets on axle and chassis then go ahead and fit one.

Personally I'd change all the bushes for new genuine Land Rover (Metalastik) ones and then fit either standard Land Rover shocks, or new ones from a more reputable brand than Pro-Comp, such as Billstein, Koni etc.

It may be worth checking your steering pre-load on the front swivel hubs too, if the steering is still jumping about on hitting potholes after the bushes are changed.

Hmm - don't think I can see such brackets,

It's not really the steering jumping - it's the vehicle jumping...

[minimaquinas]

_hi

_{why not look into a self leveller and softer springs off a 110 county}

_{i had that set up on my old 110 that i have just stripped and it was great up to}

_{the one i have now whitch has double rear springs}

_{hth brian}

[Tanuki]

I had the "front end leaping about on potholes" issue on my TD5 90 a while back. At first I suspected swivel-pre-load so spent an afternoon frobbing-about with shim packs and spring-balances to no effect.

The eventual solution: replace the OEM 90,000-mile-old shock-absorbers with gas-filled Bilsteins all round, and replace the front Panhard-rod nushes (again with original-style Metalastiks).

The Bilsteins also did away with the nasty front/rear pitching sensation (which had always been there from new, but had worsened recently) when crossing ruts, and have made towing an altogether more-stable experience as well.

--Tanuki.

[Guest]

I used to get similar issues as described above, there was a pot hole coming out of my village on a up hill right hand bend that was always 'interesting'

My defender is an 03 model and came with ARB Brackets but no ARB's, although you can buy them for a few pounds and weld them on.

The biggest change I found was replacing my springs, I guess that they are just one of those things that go over time and you don't notice they are going a bit of work swapping things out fitting the ARB's really helped.

I then found that when by truck was heavily loaded, it didn't fair well so I added some Air Helpers which really helped lift the back of the truck but also helped stiffen it up when needed.

Jason.

[sparg]

^{I thing panhard rod bushes would be a good thing to do, even though it's not particularly wander-y.}

^{revisiting this issue of dampers seems to be a good idea.}

^{A further observation about this 'axle bounce' thing:}

^{I notice that it's when the inside wheel (well, so far, that's been the left wheel) on a corner hits a significant pothole. That is, the suspension on that side is unloaded somewhat, then the wheel 'falls down' the hol, then swiftly is thrown up, at 50mph. The result is that the axle makes 4 bounces (well, 3 + original impact) successively diminishing. It being a beam axle, the whell that is loaded (the 'outside' wheel on the corner) is also affected. Hence, the vehicle 'tramps' outward on the corner.}

^{When one thinks about it, this double stimulus (down then rap[idly up) has to be the hardest challeng for a suspension with so much unsprung weight.. The fact that it occurs at the 'drooping' end of the axle might also have something to do with it? In that case, might an anti-roll bar help by reducing that 'droop?}

[sparg]

I should just say that I haven't managed to try it on a right-hande with appropriately placed pothole - I just haven't found one.

BUT... on a left-hander with a pothole hitting the right wheel, theings aren't neraly so bad.

This could point to the left suspension (that traditionally takes more hammer on British roads), OR that anyhow, the behaviour on the suspension under load differs from that when it's unloaded

As it is, I simply couldn't imagine how a defender such as mine could possibly handle more power - it would leap into a field!

[Eightpot]

If you're getting a lot of bounce it means your shock absorbers aren't doing thier job. I don't think soft springs help either as they don't resist the bouncing very much.

I normally fit NRC9448 & NRC9449 springs on the front (standard HD), and with a good gas shock absorber with standard rubber shock bushes (not tightened up too much) you should have a nice handling front end.

[Guest]

If you're getting a lot of bounce it means your shock absorbers aren't doing thier job. I don't think soft springs help either as they don't resist the bouncing very much.

I normally fit NRC9448 & NRC9449 springs on the front (standard HD), and with a good gas shock absorber with standard rubber shock bushes (not tightened up too much) you should have a nice handling front end.

That was my point that the springs could be causing the issue, not the shocks.

Jason.

[sparg]

Yeah, see your point - a harder spring might thump slightly more, but resist being 'thrown' by the rapid 'lentghten-compression' cycle that a pothole induces. The pro comp shocks don't help, I think

[FridgeFreezer]

Genuine bushes, springs, shocks or Old Man Emu springs/shocks. The wheel bouncing thing suggests your shocks are past it or not up to the job, although knackered steering kingpins can cause nasty handling on potholes too. I switched from ProComp to mid-range Bilsteins and WOW what a difference in ride, handling, etc. ProComps are cheap and cheerful.

If you want to get serious, look in the tech archive for trev's spring calculator and see if you can fit different springs more suited to your application.

[Tanuki]

Remember though that stronger springs will also need more-effective shock-absorbers to damp the rebound "boing" !!I'd try new shock-absorbers first.

Hint #1: don't bother trying to undo the nuts that hold the shock-absorbers to the axles: just take an angle-grinder to them. Much faster than frobbing around with spanners and only getting 1/16 of a turn per time.

Hint #2: Bilsteins come with yellow paint in the threads of the mountings, which makes screwing the nuts on extra-hard. Two minutes with a wire-brush to de-clag the threads will make assembly so much easier.

Hint #3: To stop the shock-absorber turning as you tighten the nuts up, put on a rubber glove so you get better grip.

Hint #4: Again, on front Bilsteins the top and bottom nuts are different threads. Not realising this can result in an afternoon of deep frustration!

--Tanuki.