Hydraulic pump

[gali]

Hi there,

it's for a long time i'm reading the messages in this forum, i find them helpfull.

lataly i though to add a hydraulic winch & i picked up a 10,000 Lb Warn winch, which by the way i couldnt find any specs for her

Now i'm thinking of the hydraulic pump to start moving this winch. I don't wan't to use a PTO one since it's very expensive, i'll setle with a smaller one & compermize the low flow rate bur not the pressure; while searching for a hydraulic pump for my winch I crossed this pump at few websites as ZF74.

Is the ZF74 goes for the original stock power steering pump at the landrover?

if do, what are her specs?

if don't, what are her specs compare to the stock one?

did any of you guys have pictures of a ZF74 installed at a TDI300?

best regards,

Gali.

[BogMonster]

Hello and welcome

The "ZF74" is the milemarker hydraulic pump and I don't think it would power a big commercial winch at anything like a sensible speed - the Milemarker is not quick (even if it will pull just about anything) and the Warn will almost certainly have a much bigger capacity hyd motor, which means slower.

The ZF74 is higher pressure and higher flow than a std LR power steering pump, I think the published specs are 13 ltr/min and about 120 bar pressure, but I have seen comment that the 13ltr/min might be a bit optimistic!

The good thing about it is that it is easy to install on a 300Tdi as you can buy a bracket and suitable pulley off the shelf from the Milemarker agents. I'll have a look and see if I have got a photo of mine...

[BogMonster]

Yes here you go, the ZF74 which drives my Milemarker fitted to my old 90, it sits where the aircon compressor would be on a Discofairy, and drives from the same belt arrangement. The pump itself is a very easy thing to fit but you need a control valve as well as its running all the time

You really need to know some info about the winch you have (motor capacity and gearing) to be able to make a stab at what capacity pump you require (pressure and flow rate) - I suspect some of the commercial winches may require a much higher pressure as well as flow rate so you could end up with something underpowered and slow. What model is the winch, does it have any info on it anywhere?

You might find it interesting to read this thread

The other "off the shelf" pump option you might look at is the one used on the Milemarker Type R, but I suspect it will be more expensive than a PTO one. UK Milemarker agents are www.4x4winches.com

[gali]

thanks for youe detailed answer.

first, i dont know any details of the Winch, exept i't's a Warn 10,000 Lb hydraulic. it's almost a brand new Winch. whta i also know about jer that she used to be a military one, belongs to the USMC mounted on a military fork clark.

i purchased her as junk but she is a brand new & never worked 5 hours all her life.

i tried for 2 months to search for any kind of a data at the web, if you or sombody else can locate any data i'll be more then happy.

I cannot attach a picture of the winch mounted to the bumper since it's not in a URL, it's on my hard drive.

[Paul Humphreys]

Did Les have a PTO pump on here for sale???

PM me an email address and I will email you and put the pic up for you.

Paul

[BogMonster]

I cannot attach a picture of the winch mounted to the bumper since it's not in a URL, it's on my hard drive.

How to post photos instructions here

[Paul Humphreys]

Pictures

Paul

[BogMonster]

Fairly solid looking bit of kit

The motor actually looks like it might be a fairly small one, so a ZF74 might power it....

[gali]

bog, if you wish for dimensions of the motor i'll take some tommorow.

can it help you estimate the engine?

[Bush65]

...The "ZF74" is the milemarker hydraulic pump...

It is not a Milemarker pump - Milemarker don't manufacture hydraulic pumps (or hyd motors). AFAIK it is a ZF powersteering pump with a slightly larger flow than the stock pump on a 300Tdi.

The only Milemarker hydraulic component on their winches is the cr&p control valve module - which should be thrown away if the pump is upgraded from a power steering pump.

BTW I have a Milemarker 10500 lb hydraulic winch and they are otherwise well made. The hydraulic motor that came with mine was manufactured by Danfoss, but according to Mal from Maxi-drive Milemarker use several suppliers for the motors.

...the Milemarker is not quick...

Totally misleading as are all similar comments in other posts about Milemarker hydraulic winches.

There is no such thing as a slow Milemarker hydraulic winch. Only slow hydraulic winch installations, which is nothing to do with the Milemarker winch (except for the control valve module), but everything to do with the choice of pump.

...The ZF74...

The good thing about it is that it is easy to install on a 300Tdi as you can buy a bracket and suitable pulley off the shelf from the Milemarker agents...

Unless you want to keep the airconditioning.

AFAIK this can only be bought from the UK agents. As it is not supplied from Milemarker it is not available from other Milemarker agents.

[Bush65]

bog, if you wish for dimensions of the motor i'll take some tommorow.

can it help you estimate the engine?

Best to look for the manufacturer's label on the hydraulic motor (not the winch, but the motor). If you can find the manufacturer's name (eg Char-Lynn) and the part number for the motor, we should be able to find the motor displacement and the maximum rated flow and pressure.

Most small hydraulic winches of this type use gerotor type motors. In my experience, all of the manufactures of these motors make them with optional output shafts and mounting flanges sot that they are interchangeable.

To achieve different displacements, and therefore torque, they simply change the width of the gerotor section.

With the Milemarker hydraulic winch (and I would also expect, with the Warn), it is possible to fit a smaller displacement motor, to increase the speed with the chosen pump. It is then a matter of setting the pressure relief valve to achieve the desired torque from the motor (which determines the maximum rope pull force).

As I stated above, most of these winches have gerotor motors. For higher speeds and pressures, they can be changed to the more efficient (and more expensive) geroller motors.

[Bush65]

Neither of those pics, show a counterbalance or overcentre valve.

Unless the Warn hydraulic winch has a mechanical brake, you will need a counterbalance or overcentre valve to act as the brake.

It is best to fit the counterbalance or overcentre valve directly on the motor, before the hose. If the hose or fittings between the motor and counterbalance/overcentre valve are damaged, you will loose the brake. For your motor, this would require a custom made valve block.

[BogMonster]

Ho hum

I apologise for not issuing the information in precise language.....

It is not a Milemarker pump - Milemarker don't manufacture hydraulic pumps (or hyd motors). AFAIK it is a ZF powersteering pump with a slightly larger flow than the stock pump on a 300Tdi.

What I meant was "This is the pump supplied as standard with Milemarker kits [from the UK supplier]"....

Totally misleading as are all similar comments in other posts about Milemarker hydraulic winches.

There is no such thing as a slow Milemarker hydraulic winch. Only slow hydraulic winch installations, which is nothing to do with the Milemarker winch (except for the control valve module), but everything to do with the choice of pump.

Not "totally misleading" at all....

I have exactly this installation, and I like it. However the H12/ZF74 is the standard kit sold by the UK supplier, which is probably fitted to 3/4 of such winches sold by said supplier, and it is slow. Will shift more or less anything, but still slow. Elsewhere, it appears that many other (probably the vast majority) are driven by power steering pumps of similar output. They will also be slow. This is a statement of fact.... which applies to probably the vast majority of such installations saying it is not slow might be correct, in the same way as saying a Tdi auto is not slow might be correct, but in both cases it doesn't reflect the performance of what appears to be the majority of such installations and that is what I was referring to.

Ooooh I need a drink

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

From memory that looks like an early H8P or H10P superwinch unit, can't 100% remember ?, but these need around 50 LPM flow for max op at - if memory serves - around 200 PSI / 140 bar ?

ZF pump = forget it for this application sorry to say

Nige

[Bush65]

I could not find a Warn 10000 lb hydraulic winch. Here are links to Warn 9000 lb and Warn 12000 lb hydraulic winches.

Both of these have automatic disc brakes.

The gear reduction is higher than my 10500 lb Milemarker. 27:1 for the 9000 and 36:1 for the 12000. From memory my Milemarker is 6:1.

The displacement of the hydraulic motor on the Warn 9000 is 49cc or 79cc (optional). The 12000 has a 79cc motor.

The displacement of the Danfoss 315 motor that came with my Milemarker is 306cc.

From Nigels post, and Warn not listing a 10000 lb hyd winch, there is doubt whether you have a Warn winch.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Early H8s are a bit different to this :

Which is an "Older" on the above, could still be a warn wants the plate on the frame say ?

Nige

[gali]

Well,

first I would lke to indicate again that it is a Warn Winch. within the next days i would take her off so i could take few pictures of the winch lable.

the motor is painted in this green military color that sticks like hell, i'll try to peel the color off the motor metal plate to try having a model or a part number.

since MM uses about ~17 Cu.in. motor & a gear ratio of 1:6 (at the low gear) & still can use the ZF74 pump i though i can use the Warn with the data between the 9K Lb to the 12KLb as motor of 5 Cu. in (kinda small). & a gear ratio of around 30:1 - thus means that the engine should go very fast (while using the same GPM) & the gear ratio of 30:1 (2 stage of planetars) should slow down the drum speed.

after a fast calc the drum should turn almost the same as MM winches.

all mentioned above should go corect only if the 10K should act somewere between the 9K to the 12K Warn hydraulic winch.

as for the PTO sugestion mentioned above, i would be happy to use a PTO, only i live in Israel & here the PTO units are very rare & cost alot.

if one of you guys wish to sell a PTO & willing to ship it - I am interested.

right now i'm looking for a ZF74 pump, i plan to attach it paralel to the A/C mount - means I'll modify the A/C mount to a bigger one, change the idler pully to a flat one & try to enjoy both plessures of life.

as prommised above, i'll take few more pictures within the next few days.

Gali.

[gali]

Hi there,

i need your help with another minor sobject relative to the hydraulic winch installing.

I found a mechanical selector valve, which should control the hyd fluid flow to the winch.

the valve has 3 chanels as follows:

1 pressure inlet (press)

1 return inlet (ret)

1 pressure outlet (power)

by the way the handle goes both ways so it shlould direct the fliud both directions.

so, how can i operate the winch both ways, forward and reverse?

I know that this valve operated once at a system that the fluid used to run both ways.

do you guys use a 4 chanels or 3 chanels selector valve?

actualy, i'll be happy for a simple schematic. or for a simple instruction.

Gali.

[Bush65]

Hi there,

i need your help with another minor sobject relative to the hydraulic winch installing.

I found a mechanical selector valve, which should control the hyd fluid flow to the winch.

the valve has 3 chanels as follows:

1 pressure inlet (press)

1 return inlet (ret)

1 pressure outlet (power)

by the way the handle goes both ways so it shlould direct the fliud both directions.

so, how can i operate the winch both ways, forward and reverse?

I know that this valve operated once at a system that the fluid used to run both ways.

do you guys use a 4 chanels or 3 chanels selector valve?

actualy, i'll be happy for a simple schematic. or for a simple instruction.

Gali.

You need a 4-way, 3 position, spring centred valve.

A 4-way valve with have 4 ports:

1. 'P' port, which is pressure from pump

2. 'T' port, which is return flow to tank

3. 'A' port, which connects to one port of the hydraulic motor on the winch

4. 'B' port, which connects to the other port on the winch motor

The 3 positions with your hydraulic winch are:

1. The centre (or neutral) position.

2. Wind rope one direction 'P' -> 'A', 'B' -> 'T'

3. Wind rope the other direction 'P' -> 'B', 'A' -> 'T'

There are many possible spools types, which determine what happens when the spool is in the centre position. Common types are:

1. All ports blocked.

2. Both 'A' and 'B' -> 'T', 'P' blocked.

[gali]

Thanks Bush65 for the detailed info.

do you think that the "Fork-Lift" vale is a 4-way valve?

[Bush65]

Thanks Bush65 for the detailed info.

do you think that the "Fork-Lift" vale is a 4-way valve?

From your description, it only has 3 ports, so it is not 4-way. It would probably be meant for a single acting cylinder (actuator).

If the built in brake does not require a 4-way valve, you could use a 3 way for power in only, the outlet from the motor would by-pass the valve to return to tank. You could not power out and would only be able to pull rope from the drum in free spool.