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Diesel Dipping - Testing VOSA


Big.Mike

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bakewell cattle market, dont matter what you drive expect to be dipped and make sure you aint overloaded.

also my truck is definately the sort of truck to get dipped anywhere, let alone there.

Same with us at Melton Market, had the 90 dipped 6 times out of the last 7 times I've been. It's not worth the risk, especially if you drive a vehicle that looks like it has access to red e.g. farm vehicles.

I was pulled over in my diesel pug 306 last summer, I asked why they chose me and they said because 'I was wearing a John Deere boiler suit and had Farmers Weekly/ BASC window stickers in the back'

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"Agricultural" venues are always favourites for the VOSA and HMRC guys to hang-out: a few years back they seemed to have a blitz on agricultural shows/gymkhanas/country fairs and the like.

Not only did they check for red, and give a lot of the elderly horse-boxes a good going-over from a MOT-and-tachograph perspective, but they were also checking the driving licences of people towing horse-boxes & caravans to make sure they had the trailer-towing-permitted class.

A battered 25-year-old Bedford horsebox towing an elderly caravan and driven by someone under-30 would draw the dayglo-jacketed, clipboard-wielding types like flies to a turd.

--Tanuki

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I was pulled over in my diesel pug 306 last summer, I asked why they chose me and they said because 'I was wearing a John Deere boiler suit and had Farmers Weekly/ BASC window stickers in the back'

The wife has one of those, now up to 280,000 miles on original engine/box etc. She's never been pulled over once, but then she's a cival servant - and looks like one!

Julian.

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I've seen VOSA set up a diesel check point on White Ladies Road in Bristol, which is a shopping street in the city centre populated by students. So they can pop up in random areas rather then just Industrial Estates etc.

Seriously?

I doubt the good burghers of White Ladies Road know what red diesel is :offtopic:

They might as well setup a checkpoint on the King's Road in London....

Chelsea Tractor != Tractor

But seriously (and assuming we're talking about older Landies here), if you want to save on fuel, run veg oil. It's legal up to a certain amount per year.

As for 'removing' Red Diesel...yes that's just what builders, contractors and farmers need in the UK, more paperwork. As for your dirt bikes, nobody said you had to run these on 'road taxed' fuel...it's just that 'red petrol' isn't generally available. Assuming, that is, you're talking about running them on private land...

I'm surprised the nobody from the V8 mafia has yet stepped in with a "Satan's Fuel" comment :hysterical:

Hat, coat, door.

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Ok, so my suggestions may not be perfect - but all I'm trying to do is to level the playing field,it may be more help to come up with better ideas rather than just trash mine.I'm not after cheaper fuel for my bikes,but i dont see why other "lesuire users" should be allowed a rebate.

BTW, submitting VAT returns is not at all hard now,takes me just a few minutes,my LR garage has no right to rebated fuel,but if I ran a farm or plant company I'd be happy to do the job right and claim back the tax rebate due.

As I said before it seems that those who want to keep on abusing a system that is now well out of date are the ones who are most vocal about change.

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The wierd thing about seeing VOSA on White Ladies road was that I drove past in my Defender and they didn't stop me!

We're paying 71p odd per litre for red at the moment, so a massive saving. You can see why people risk it, I know of quite a few 'old school' plant operators runing their vans on red. They don't care about VOSA (which they see as little more than glorifyed traffic wardens) and wont pay any fine they get anyway.

Abolishing red diesel is a carp idea. To start with every business which uses it will need to find the extra money each month to cover the time between using the fuel and claiming the duty back. We use approximately 5,000 litres every day, so that would be a huge sum of extra money to find at the end of each month.

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,it may be more help to come up with better ideas rather than just trash mine.I'm not after cheaper fuel for my bikes,but i dont see why other "lesuire users" should be allowed a rebate.

.

I don't think that any leisure users are allowed a rebate - are you aware of any?

I have a litle Massey 135 that I restored and plan to take on the odd tractor road run - strickly speaking I should have it on white to do this.

Julian.

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I don't think that any leisure users are allowed a rebate - are you aware of any?

I have a litle Massey 135 that I restored and plan to take on the odd tractor road run - strickly speaking I should have it on white to do this.

Julian.

A while ago yachtie types were allowed to use Red Diesel for the powering their boats - Not anymore. According to some sources, not even HMRC wanted to do this (cost more to collect than it would earn), it was EU diktat...

Ok, so my suggestions may not be perfect - but all I'm trying to do is to level the playing field,it may be more help to come up with better ideas rather than just trash mine.I'm not after cheaper fuel for my bikes,but i dont see why other "lesuire users" should be allowed a rebate.

As you are all too well aware, positive cash flow is everything in business. To suddenly add that cashflow+administrative burden to businesses that hadn't had to cope with it thus far sounds is nonsensical. And to what end, if they're only going to get refunded/rebated anyway? What would be the point?

As for 'leisure users' - as has been pointed out thusfar this is effectively...who? Not yachties/boaties. Stationery engine types and vintage tractor people? Chicken feed compared to business getting through thousands of litres per week. Not worth HMRC even sharpening their pencils.

What I'm saying is, I don't believe there's anything wrong with the status quo - other than White Diesel being taxed too highly. If someone uses red diesel illegitimately and gets caught, be prepared for the 'white glove' treatment (financially speaking).

By the way, sorry if my previous post came across as aggressive, trust me that wasn't the intention.

Do they make diesel dirtbikes? :offtopic:

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tell you what, given the likelehood of getting stopped - slim to nothing, you'd be quids in getting done and having the car confiscated once every decade or so!

Julian

Don't be too sure.....we got dipped a few years ago going into the Dorset steam fair. Some people we knew got dipped in a 110 that was full of red - HMRC told them they would be waiting for them to leave, and if the tank wasn't full of white (which means an empty and clean) they'd be in serious trouble. They were looking at a massive fine, and a bill for back-duty, based on an assumed consumption over x number of years

A while ago yachtie types were allowed to use Red Diesel for the powering their boats - Not anymore. According to some sources, not even HMRC wanted to do this (cost more to collect than it would earn), it was EU diktat...

As for 'leisure users' - as has been pointed out thusfar this is effectively...who? Not yachties/boaties. Stationery engine types and vintage tractor people? Chicken feed compared to business getting through thousands of litres per week. Not worth HMRC even sharpening their pencils.

Its not quite as simple as that, it depends on how electricity and heating is provided on the boat. The narrowboat we reguarly crew for is only supplied with 12v electricity provided by the engine, and the only form of heating is from the air-cooled engine. Therefore we do get a rebate on some of the fuel...thankfully I don't have to fill out the paperwork to account for and calculate the figures!

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It can get very complicated, as I found when investigating what I could use in the tractor.

Trailer load of cow**** = Red

Trailer load of horse**** = Derv

Plough on tractor going to field = Red

Plough on trailer going to blacksmith = Derv

Going to mow a horse paddock = Derv

Going to mow a cow field = Red

Going to mow hay but not known what animal will eat it = Red

Cutting a hedge in a rural area = Red

Cutting a hedge on an industrial estate = Derv

Towing a trailer over 20mph = Derv and an HGV license

Towing a trailer under 20mph = Red and a car license

Having said all that, phone the same people from Revenue and DVLA a week later and you will likely get different answers!!!!! Even they don't know??

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Have a look here; http://www.dieselbike.net/kawasaki/kawasaki.htm

My father uses derv in his old tractors on road runs etc,he even has a some kind of "permit",you cant really call it a licence to make up TVO for the Fordson and his mates T20 - its a real joke,there is no proof of anything,ratios of petrol to paraffin or how much is made etc.

I think the whole thing is a pickle.....

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Well mine always ran red too. No way was expensive derv going in it. Most of my work was mowing paddocks, but aparently if you don't know that it's not going to be used for agriculture, you are covered. Clearing snow should mean using Derv but like most of the above cases I think it is largely ignored.

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Ok, so my suggestions may not be perfect - but all I'm trying to do is to level the playing field,it may be more help to come up with better ideas rather than just trash mine.I'm not after cheaper fuel for my bikes,but i dont see why other "lesuire users" should be allowed a rebate.

BTW, submitting VAT returns is not at all hard now,takes me just a few minutes,my LR garage has no right to rebated fuel,but if I ran a farm or plant company I'd be happy to do the job right and claim back the tax rebate due.

As I said before it seems that those who want to keep on abusing a system that is now well out of date are the ones who are most vocal about change.

Sorry AllyV8, but I see loads of issues with this. The biggest and most immediate one is this: I work on a ship. For a few months we were laid up in Scotland awaiting the next contract. The ship is Bahamian flagged, owned by a Dutchman, and operated from Guernsey via a manning agency in the UK. So the only UK link here is the manning agency who have no power over ship's expenses.

Whilst in Scotland, we had to fill up with fuel - and we burn diesel. Ideally, MDO from a bunker barge, but on this occasion we were in a port with no access to a barge and we needed fuel in a hurry. We had 5 road tankers (the 33,000 litre ones) deliver us red diesel - and that barely got us 1/4 full.

Now if red was abolished, how would we claim back the tax on white? For a full tank, that's nearly quarter of a million in tax.

Don't forget that really the users of white diesel are not the large majority that they think they are. There are too many 'red burners' who'd have similar problems - not just agriculture, but industry. Vast quantites of it are burnt for power generation and heat and to have them all burning white and claiming back the tax would be ludicrous.

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Well come up with a better idea ! shipping and fishing fleets could all have their own way of claiming back,or even an HMRC approved buying ID where they could claim the discount on purchase over a certain volume.

All I'm saying is that the red diesel situation must be one of the biggest fiddles going - so sort it out.My brothers mate in Oz has no problems claiming back fuel duty and GST on diesel,if the Aussies can do it and make it work I'm sure we can.(Ish...)

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All I'm saying is that the red diesel situation must be one of the biggest fiddles going -

If you abolished red, then the even 'biggest fiddle' ever would be falsified paperwork claiming back duty on white.

There would be no way to tell by the roadside what the situation was via a spot-check. Thus a farmer, construction site worker, fisherman or forester would be running his Diesel Audi on white but put through the books as having gone into the CAT D8, New-Holland or JCB. All you would need is a relatively recent receipt for a few litres of white from a forecourt in your pocket and Bob's your uncle!

You ask for a better idea. I have one: Police the laws properly. For one there's a million uninsured drivers out on the roads and once again we see politicians trumpeting all sorts of initiatives but nothing _really_ gets done....Same with Red, same with drugs, same with our city centres becoming war zones on a Friday evening.......

Julian

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Seriously?

I doubt the good burghers of White Ladies Road know what red diesel is :offtopic:

They might as well setup a checkpoint on the King's Road in London....

Chelsea Tractor != Tractor

But seriously (and assuming we're talking about older Landies here), if you want to save on fuel, run veg oil. It's legal up to a certain amount per year.

As for 'removing' Red Diesel...yes that's just what builders, contractors and farmers need in the UK, more paperwork. As for your dirt bikes, nobody said you had to run these on 'road taxed' fuel...it's just that 'red petrol' isn't generally available. Assuming, that is, you're talking about running them on private land...

I'm surprised the nobody from the V8 mafia has yet stepped in with a "Satan's Fuel" comment :hysterical:

Hat, coat, door.

i though that even now, after this last year, even any amount of veg needed claiming... i.e. they got greedy again and now you cant have a low mileage allowance on veg. its any amount you need to pay duty...

Go on then what about clearing snow with a tractor?

im not sure, but if you di it as a farmer for the council you get a fair bit of pay and they insure you under the emergency services insurance, i.e. its hardly ever your fault...

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i though that even now, after this last year, even any amount of veg needed claiming... i.e. they got greedy again and now you cant have a low mileage allowance on veg. its any amount you need to pay duty...

......

Have you a source for that information Mikey?

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Will have to dig out the letter I got from HMRC. I used to be registered as a fuel producer in order to use veg oil, which you had to do to be legal. Then they wrote and told me I didn't have to declare any more provided it was less than (I think) 5000 Ltrs a year. There has been no notification that this has changed.

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you are allowed to use veg/chip oil up to 2,500 litres per year before you must pay additional tax on it, a workmate runs his Pug306 on used chip ol//white diesel mix, he made enquires about how much chip oil he was permitted to use per year,

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2,500 Ltrs is it? I was a bit out then! Never got close to using enough to worry about it. Even when I was paying duty on it it was at a much reduced rate to Derv so it still came out pretty cheap. Still looking for a local source of cheap used veg oil to put through my filtration system since I lost the supply I had.

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Maybe hgv's should be run on red then there wouldn't be so many companies goin under and the price of pretty much everything you buy would drop dramatically as it wouldnt be costing as much to get it delivered/moved. Bit O/T i know but needs doin.

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